Lavartus Prodeo nights.

14 Feb

by Linus Ekenstam via flickr

It wasn’t my intention to visit the Lavartus Prodeo blog. I was on my way to somewhere else when an enticing little link popped up and before I knew it I was right in the middle of the Lavartus Prodeo On Line Opinion thread.

My first post was an alternative perspective on moderating from that dominant in the thread. This brought an immediate response, to the effect that those with enough wit are capable of composing comments that don’t require the intervention of a moderator, and the witless were deleted and dispatched elsewhere. LP is a cyber club, the post continued, and if I didn’t like the rules of the cyber club I should also move elsewhere.

I was a little taken aback at this reaction to what, after all, had only been a personal observation on alternative moderating.

Later on, another commenter told me that I’d announced my alternative opinion in a way that was too challenging and provocative, and I shouldn’t go onto blogs for the first time telling everybody I had a different opinion, because that immediately got them all off side.

In spite of the uninviting nature of the initial reaction, or because of it, my curiosity was aroused. Many people would have run a mile and never returned, but I have a compulsion to continue even when, or especially when, someone tells me right off I don’t belong.

I think it’s a consequence of experiencing severe marginalisation as a child. Freud’s repetition compulsion. I’m still trying to resolve the original trauma of not being allowed to belong, so I compulsively take on anybody who tries to shut me out. Daft, but a compulsion is a compulsion.

As well, I had my own strong opinions about the OLO controversy, and didn’t mind expressing a few of them at LP. I’d go for it, I decided, and girded up.

My decision to subject myself to the experience was also influenced in no small part by the effects of large doses of painkillers I was taking after surgery. These gave me an exaggerated sense of my own capabilities, and made some things seem funny that probably weren’t.

Choosing the best hat for the occasion

Some years ago I read an account of the psychoanalyst Bruno Bettelheim’s experiences in a concentration camp. He’d survived, he felt, because he had been able to observe and record the experience through the framework of his training. He’d used it as an opportunity to observe human behaviour under extreme conditions. He’d learned a great deal, and given himself a purpose that kept him going. The result was some fascinating insights into the human animal under intolerable stress, and his survival.

I’m not suggesting for a moment that visiting LP was anything like Bettelheim’s ordeal, but since I read how he survived, I’ve often employed his methods when I’ve found myself in testing situations.

I also got a bit of encouragement in this direction from Foucault, who’s mission it was to always find the back story – “My problem is essentially the definition of the implicit systems in which we find ourselves prisoners.” Well, that.

To add to all that, being curious about nationalism, border protection and sovereignty in all its forms, even when manifested on a blog, I sensed there would be a great deal there for me if I took the time to engage in a few encounters.

I also spent years as a clinician, a lot of that time running groups. That specialised interest is probably also a consequence of being chucked out of my original group at an early age.

The past does indeed determine the present, and the future.

This is not the first time I have done this

One more disclosure. I have conducted this experiment (being the only disputing voice and seeing what happens) on a Melinda Tankard Reist comments thread. Though in that case I was quickly joined by others, and the burden of sole dissent was removed from my shoulders. LP is the only blog where I’ve been absolutely alone.

Don’t talk about the PhD

Many of the insults directed at me by MTR’s followers were repeated at LP, especially, strangely, insults about my academic qualifications. I would have thought that both places, the one Christian feminist, the other apparently catering to the educated, would have taken them in their stride, and found them unremarkable, but not at all. I was roundly ridiculed in both places for having mentioned my PhD.

Even though in the MTR case someone had demanded to know what my qualifications were, and I obligingly told them.

And in the LP case Mark Bahnisch corrected me when I addressed him as Mr, saying that he was in fact Dr. So I signed my very next post as Dr, seeing as it seemed to matter.

And brought down on my head an outpouring of mirth from what seemed like a zillion commenters, some of whom revealed their own academic credentials, (no doctorates) and others who made a few up.

Dr Bahnisch was having a joke, it seems, and in signing myself Dr, I apparently responded too seriously. I know him very well, someone posted, and you’ve got him all wrong.

Well, as I’ve never met him, and heard of him only vaguely for reasons I can’t recall, I can’t think of one reason why I’d be expected to know him, much less be au fait with his sense of humour.

God, it’s hard when you don’t know the group norms!

Eric Sykes then showed great insight when he commented that perhaps the blog was not for me.

Somebody then expressed the hope that I would go away.

I took another pain killer. It was time.

Starved of radical dissent

I posted a few times about the OLO situation, and my thoughts that in attempting to close OLO down, an attack was being launched on free speech, among many other things. What did I mean by free speech, Dr Bahnisch demanded. Was I referring to John Stuart Mills? Was I making claims about OLO and the Socratic dialogue? OLO and the principles of the Enlightenment?

By now there were numerous LP commenters attacking me like starving feral cats will set upon a bowl of food left out by a kindly human. I began to think that these people probably didn’t often have the opportunity to talk to someone who completely disagreed with them. They were starved of radical dissent, desperate for someone other than themselves against whom to test their brute intellectual strength, and I was it.

Whoa people! I wrote. You are many and I am but one!

Yes, someone called Fine replied. You might be feeling overwhelmed but if you would only argue properly instead of using rhetoric!

I move blogs

Later that day I meandered over to Club Troppo where I left a comment about the OLO situation. Only to have Mistress Kimbrella (one of the made up qualifications) from LP pursue me like one of the furies.

Well, hello there, Dr Wilson, she wrote. Sorry you didn’t make any friends and influence people at LP.

Really, Mistress whatsit, I admonished as the drugs kicked in, I have given you a day and much of the night. Are you not satisfied? I never said I was interested in commitment. Are you going to demand my attention on the flimsiest of excuses?

The Mistress then reminded me that she had been at Club Troppo and LP for many years. Her point apparently being that I, on the other hand, had only just arrived.

Oh, you mean I’ve landed illegally in a leaky boat without my proper papers, in sovereign territory where I was not invited? I wrote.

What was it again? Oh yes: “We will decide who comes to this blog and the manner in which they come!”

And they’d better assimilate straight away, having first been suitably humble, or they can go right back where they came from.

By now it was becoming clear to me that these people were not fans of Levinas’ theories of radical hospitality.

Group dynamics

Anyone with superficial knowledge of how a group works, knows that one of the basic bonding rituals used to strengthen and reinforce the group is for its members to unite against an outsider. The herd mentality does not have the capacity to embrace the other. It is entirely dedicated to preserving its sovereignty.

The outsider offers a perfect opportunity for a closed group to reinvigorate itself. Members who may feel themselves on the outer for some reason are given the opportunity to return to the fold, as they unite with their fellows against the stranger.

This process is essential from time to time, as the closed group inevitably becomes incestuous when deprived of external contact, turning on one another and splintering into factions. The appearance of a stranger can cause the group to temporarily abandon its dysfunction, re-bond, and celebrate its strengths.

Or as Costas Douzinas puts it “The foreigner is the political precondition of the nation state…”

Getting a good kicking

I have to say LP was much, much worse than MTR. MTR does welcome very opposing commentary. Some of her followers will give you a good kicking, but they don’t tell you to find another blog because you don’t fit in. They thrive on dissent. In this I can only admire them, though many of their views are, in my view, bordering on the insane.

Finally, I accept that I’m not wanted.

I have taken the advice of the LP commenters, and removed myself from their site, probably never to return, unless I have more surgery requiring pain relief.

I probably won’t go back to Club Troppo either, as Ken Parish told me metaphorically to bugger off because my arguments are relentless. I was only trying to rebut statements and opinions he’d attributed to me that were not mine. But I was a foreigner there, too, and perhaps foreigners aren’t supposed to get so uppity right off. Even if they do feel they’re being misrepresented. Maybe foreigners are supposed to just suck it up till they’ve been initiated and accepted? I don’t know.

The last word I give to Derrida:

“For hospitality is not some region of ethics…it is ethicity itself, the whole principle of ethics…”

There’s a lesson in that for all of us.

9 Responses to “Lavartus Prodeo nights.”

  1. PAUL WALTER February 14, 2011 at 7:42 am #

    It was sad reading that, because unfortunately some of it is true.
    It’s where the decline has occurred with this site- inward, isolationist, seperatist, rusted-on clique-ish, outsiders guilty till proven innocent and hostile in attitude towards those outside the in-group.
    It ought to be remembered that the mood is more tense at the moment because of the feud that has broken out ove the gay marriage thread starter at OLP.
    Am not sure if OLP gets out of the thing unscathed eiither. It could be argued that the differences between Young and the LPers goes back aways; I suspect Young might have allowed the particular thread that’s caused the kerfuffle to be left open as a subtle provocation to the GLF groupings, perhaps in retaliation as part of a sequence of tit for tat.
    And of course the GLFers had to take offence, which is usual for them on GLF issues. Consequently, the current antic was off up and running.


  2. PAUL WALTER February 14, 2011 at 8:26 am #

    Whaddya know.
    Have belatedly stumbled across your gay marriage thread starter from 30/11 at OLP!
    You are a bit like me, not conservative in your views and yet you cop blanket rejection at a supposedly progressive site.
    Baffling, yes?
    I note the comments thread at OLP for your starter was a bit more sophisticated than the Muehlenberg thread. Most rejected the innane”plot” theory as to glf, and saw that someone had the wit to mention Marcuse, repressive tolerance and “new left” thinking from the seventies that gave impetus to “rainbow” issues involving feminism, enviro, gay rights and animl lib; “counter cultural” thinking, if you like, at a time when society was finally breaking clear of Victorian puritanism and industrial age regimentation both domestically and in the workplace, in view of the impact of Freud and Jung, Weber/Tawney and Frankfurt School cultural theory.


  3. PAUL WALTER February 14, 2011 at 8:39 am #

    One more dip, because I see you have mentioned “Mistress Kimberella”, a individual well enough known to me for a mixture of good and bad reasons, also. She’s bright and one of those who has apparently have to overcome significant issues to make something of herself. But yes, the aggression is a bit much sometimes and she’s not backward in coming forward to censor out posts she doesn’t pesonally like, beleive me!
    You might not be aware that some of the”people”you were conversing with sock or meat puppets, the innner circle there is addicted to employ of these in their quest to king hit dissidents.
    Very Stockholm Syndrome, at times.
    I see you mention Tankard Reist, may have a dig back to find out the context, but she has a problem, to me, because she’s smart enough to understand the concept of commodification, but too timid to overtly relate and link this to consumer capitalism rather than some vague libertarian push.


    • Jennifer Wilson February 14, 2011 at 8:32 pm #

      Paul, the “Flesh eating coffins” piece on this blog gives a brief account of one of my forays into MTR land.

      As my only encounter with LP is the one described, I haven’t any broader knowledge of the function/dysfunction.

      I have feisty encounters in the OLO forums at times, recently wrote a piece complaining about the ad hominem arguments employed there and everywhere else. However, while I was complaining, I wasn’t demanding they be censored.

      As derrida derider pointed out, there’s no such thing as the right not to be offended. We’re not entitled to demand a public space free of offense. That’s what the home is for. It all gets a bit precious.

      I remember when I was living in Mexico for a while, how the zocalos filled in the evenings and people had hugely energetic and robust political stoushes. There’s no insult I know that’s quite like the Mexican insult!


  4. Steve at the Pub February 16, 2011 at 8:42 am #

    An excellent summary of the Larvatus Prodeo site.

    It has an excellent format, works very like a chatroom at times.
    Unfortunately for all the reasons described in the post above, it fails to keep new commenters.

    Comments threads are all much the same, intellectual rigour is absent, anything that diverges from the groupthink is attacked in a vulgar & coarse manner.

    The sock puppeting is obviously a feature of the inner circle, as can be noticed if you inhabit a few threads, as sometimes they forget to address someone by the sock puppet name being used, instead using the usual ID of the sock puppet.

    This is confusing at first, until you work out what is going on.

    Of all the moderators, the intellectual lightweight is the ID “Kim” that you had the pleasure of seeing in action. There isn’t much (if any) depth or scope to whoever uses that ID. Not only is She (he?) particularly narrow-minded, but is quite intolerant, judgemental, & absent any sense of irony.

    It may have been a stimulating site in the past, but a well thought out hypothesis put forward in a thread is responded to (as you discovered) not with intellecutal rigour, but low-level jeering & vulgar language.

    Some quite sick puppies inhabit the comments threads. Particularly coarse unhinged personal attacks by regulars are prone to disappearing when fellow moderators with cooler heads browse the thread. (The comments policy is possibly the most selectively applied one on the internet).

    It may or may not have been interesting once, but for some time it has been nothing more than a bunch of brownshirts circle-jerking.


    • Jennifer Wilson February 16, 2011 at 9:13 am #

      Thanks Steve – am most interested in your comments on LP – solves some of the mystery – Mark Bahnisch invited me to be a regular contributor to the conversations(!!) But I didn’t see anything interesting enough – too many other places to go, things to see that stimulate and inspire.


  5. Houellebecq February 17, 2011 at 1:55 am #

    This is gold! Very funny indeed. I followed (stalked) you from OLO BTW.

    I had a similar experience when starting out at OLO. I didn’t appreciate the authority that ‘established’ users held. I found it very amusing and I had as much fun with it at the time as you seem to have had here.


    • Jennifer Wilson February 17, 2011 at 2:06 am #

      Welcome, Houellebecq!
      Glad you enjoyed it – LP have invited me back to make on going contributions to their chat room, but life’s to short to waste on all that aggro, and I think I’ve mined all the humour!

      Actually, they invited me back before I put Lavartus Prodeo nights up, so the invitation has probably been withdrawn.



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