“…there are no votes in decency.”

8 Mar

The full quote comes from Federal Liberal MP Russell Broadbent, in reference to fallen Victorian Premier Ted Baillieu, and reads:  “This is a man of great decency but obviously there are no votes in decency.”

I don’t have enough knowledge about Mr Baillieu and his situation to comment on his decency, and it is the observation “there are no votes in decency” that captured my attention.

It seems to me to sum up our current federal politics in relation to asylum seeker policies promoted by both major parties. I understand Pauline Hanson is looking to join them yet again, but as the ALP & LNP have stolen her thunder and more, it’s difficult to see why anybody needs her voice as they did back then, before John Howard plagiarised her instruction manual for xenophobes and racists and she found herself in gaol.

But that’s another story.

There is nothing even approaching decency in the government or the opposition’s asylum seeker policies. There is much chatter about dog whistling, but as far as I can see, they barely bother to dog whistle. The xenophobia is overtly rampant. The asylum seekers and refugees are well scapegoated. The fears of Australians are well-played upon: foreigners are taking our jobs and the government will rescue us from that. Asylum seekers and refugees present such a danger to us that police must be informed when they are housed in our neighbourhoods. It isn’t necessary to go through the dismal litany of false and unnecessary fears aroused solely to give politicians the opportunity to offer to then save us from those fears. It is a masterly manipulation, begun by Howard, honed close to perfection by subsequent politicians of both major parties, who apparently will do anything to win the vote of frightened and aggrieved xenophobes and racists.

Of whom it would seem there are a great many in Australia, otherwise why would anyone bother fighting tooth and nail to gain their approval?

That there are good reasons for some, even many people to be discontent with their lot, is not at issue. That politicians have managed to educate such people to believe that asylum seekers and refugees are responsible for this discontent, and not the decisions of politicians themselves, is evidence of a hugely successful propaganda campaign.

There are no votes in decency in Australia. Decency died in asylum seeker and refugee politics when Pauline Hanson opened the floodgates, and other politicians, witnessing the raging white water of legitimised ignorance and hate roar through, decided that rather than contest the mindset, they’d exploit it for all it’s worth because, votes.

Bereft of decent leaders in this matter, we find ourselves treading water in a cesspool of  racism, and fear and hatred of the foreign. Instead of broadening our minds and hearts, political leaders have promoted a shameful mental and spiritual shrinking of our human possibilities. The few lone voices in federal parliament are drowned out by leaders too inadequate and power-hungry to decently address the plight of asylum seekers and refugees, instead dehumanising them until all that is left is vote fodder.

It is a sickening, heartbreaking state in which we find ourselves and our country. A pox on both their political houses. They have brought us shame, disgrace and dishonour. There are indeed, no votes in decency.

On a personal note, I’m embarking on a road trip to Canberra and surrounds tomorrow for ten days, so the blog may be neglected, on the other hand it may not!

I’ve also decided to fulfil a long-held ambition to do a law degree. Because I already have a few degrees I’m allowed to fast track, and will take only three years full-time to complete. So the blog may be neglected off and on from July this year.

One of the side effects of severe childhood abuse was an inability to learn whilst I was at school. When I started on my road to recovery as an adult, an insatiable hunger for learning emerged from the wreckage, a hunger that inspired me through two and a half degrees and a PhD. Well, it’s surfaced again. I can’t wait to hit the books, and writing 2000 word essays after a 100,000 word doctorate ought to be a breeze.

I still have treatment for my post traumatic stress disorder, and will for the rest of my life. It doesn’t go away, but my ability to manage the symptoms increases all the time. I told my therapist yesterday that I sometimes feel such fury that so much of my life has to be spent managing the aftermath of childhood abuse, and how if I hadn’t needed to do that, I could have done so many other things.

I think of the children in detention who have suffered so much, and how their adult lives will be affected by their trauma. For those who’ve fled life-threatening circumstances, it’s bad enough. But to think that here, in Australia, in 2013, our government incarcerates these children and subjects them to even more stress, makes my blood boil at the cruel and hideous self-interest that causes politicians to act towards asylum seekers in such ways.

Many, if not all of the detained children will be eventually granted refugee status. They will be living their adult lives in this country. Instead of damaging them further, can we not treat them well, and kindly, and help them to be competent, productive and useful citizens?  Surely it’s in our own interests to do this?

Decency. Is it too much to ask? Yes, I fear it is.

262 Responses to ““…there are no votes in decency.””

  1. gerard oosterman March 8, 2013 at 8:56 am #

    I have always been puzzled by this dislike and suspicion or hatred of the foreigner by so many. Perhaps this comes from living on an island. There were riots in detention (migrant camps) centers back in the 1940/50’s with the army quelling uprisings among European migrants. Suicides in camps were rife then as they are now.
    There is a hardness and lack of empathy more here than any country that I have lived in but perhaps there are also historical reasons with those first settlers having had a hard time after being sent here for trivial misdemeanors. Look at the ‘boarding’ out of children at primary level in the UK, how harsh .Why did those UK families have children?


  2. Forrest Gumpp (@ForrestGumpp) March 8, 2013 at 8:59 am #

    Thank you Jennifer Wilson for providing an opportunity for evading the limitations of Twitter upon a discussion of this subject, a discussion that is already well under way on that platform.

    Due to those limitations I have already suggested an over-simplified explanation, in a Twitter conversation, of the Pauline Hanson phenomenon that could be misleading. Here is that conversation:

    I intend to challenge aspects of your statement that:

    “… Decency died in asylum seeker and refugee
    politics when Pauline Hanson opened the floodgates,
    and other politicians, witnessing the raging white
    water of legitimised ignorance and hate roar through,
    decided that rather than contest the mindset, they’d
    exploit it for all it’s worth because, votes.”

    I don’t think that was the order of events and causalities at all.


    • Jennifer Wilson March 8, 2013 at 9:30 am #

      Excellent Forrest, thank you for widening the discussion.


      • Forrest Gumpp (@ForrestGumpp) March 8, 2013 at 3:49 pm #

        Here is the last tweet from that Twitter conversation:

        I don’t know why, but some conversations seem to get truncated in the embedding process.

        What I was referring to as being ‘misleading’ in my post of March 8, 2013 at 8:59 am was my use of the word ‘Precisely’ in this latter tweet. What I meant to convey was that at least in some quarters there was a very sound understanding of the extent to which a proportion of the electorate had progressively become disenchanted with political correctness and migration-related issues, BEFORE ever Pauline Hanson was elected, as a Liberal, to the Parliament for the erstwhile historically safe Labor seat centred on Ipswich, Qld.

        Could it have been, I ask myself, that had that perceived drift of electoral support been mirrored by a membership influx into, particularly, the Liberal Party as it was then composed, that control or influence over that party by what these days is euphemistically referred to as ‘the religious right’ may have been made much more difficult to establish and maintain?

        Could it also have been that the relative extent of electoral support for a political party then proceeding to address the concerns of that disenchanted part of the electorate at large was already known or suspected of being so great as to have been electorally unthreatenable from without or within, thereby likely denying any prospect of covert minority-interest domination over policy formation for a long time into the future?


    • hudsongodfrey March 8, 2013 at 9:42 am #

      You’d have to go all the way back to Billy Hughes and maybe even beyond to do that Forrest…..

      Many Australians see themselves as a white enclave in an Asian cultural dessert. The reason is simply that while they’d nominally agree such things exist I think they still simply lack any real appreciation for other cultures and therefore continue to fear difference.

      There is something interesting I think to be unpacked in the idea of what it is to embrace your own culture as opposed to dipping your mind in the experiences of difference and diversity the world has to offer. I don’t think one truly chooses to be as one is until opportunities to experience the alternatives have been explored. But I have met people who when given the chance are so utterly fishes out of water as to make me wonder if there aren’t a lot of us who aren’t equipped with a faculty of openness to those experiences. And that saddens me for our future because it speaks to the prevalence of a mindset that is simply unable to move beyond white fortress Australia.

      So I don’t think you need to target Hanson or Howard in particular if the real question is to be, why did people willingly get on the xenophobe bandwagon? At this stage I’m not even sure that leading strongly away from xenophobia wouldn’t involve the kind of constant acknowledgement of it as a problem that spawns a kind of political correctness rather than something more genuine.

      Either way I find it unsurprising that people I’ve encountered here are typically against racism and religion, since a common factor both share is that you can’t drag people kicking and screaming away from those beliefs without creating a persecution mindset. The art of persuasion is tied up with an ability to make another person think the idea you’re selling is her own. Some people come to better ideas thoughtfully, others just seem to follow the mob…..


  3. hudsongodfrey March 8, 2013 at 9:00 am #

    Thanks Jennifer,

    Those a beautiful and obviously heartfelt sentiments that would only be detracted from by too much detailed analysis.

    I agree that there may not be any votes in decency, but what I think you might really be asking is why do there have to be votes in indecency?

    Whether Gillard likes it or not, it used to be possible to suppress the urge to air political language that is code for racism, and now it is not. Her biggest successes as a politician have been to pursue policy initiatives under duress, but she has sadly failed to seize the hearts and minds of Australians as the leader she should be if she can’t lead us away from xenophobia.


  4. Elisabeth March 8, 2013 at 9:01 am #

    I’ve struggled to understand why it is we have such a raging hatred of asylum seekers in this country, too, Jennifer. It seems to me it comes out of a deep seated fear that there is not enough to go around. My parents were migrants and I know that this country offered them a safe place, safe enough at any rate, after the second world war, but the tide seems to have changed and not only in Australia. My heart bleeds for the children in detention, too.

    How wonderful that you can now go off to study law. Congratulations.


    • paul walter March 8, 2013 at 9:56 am #

      Silly Jenny and Elisabeth!
      The 457 visa problem should identify the problem for those unable to comprehend the reactive nature of blue collar responses to increased numbers from overseas.
      This at exactly the time when neoliberal nostrums erode both the capacity of local labour to defend hard won conditions and standard of living fought for over a century and to act as bulwarks against neoliberal ( Goldman Sachs type) globalisation, which seeks to play off local labour against imported labour, think eg, Gina Rinehart’s $2 dollars a day wage eventual goal (while she and her ilk sit on their $ billions, laughing down their noses).
      The thrust is demonstrated in the continuation of harsher welfare conditions for blue collar people (as against middle class and corporate welfare), despite the refusal of employers to hire local labour,resulting in exclusion from participation in society.
      Secondly, ordinary people know full well who causes the refugee flows and see no effort from Big Powers and TNC’s to halt the policies that create disasters like Afghanistan and Iraq.
      They will continue to spend their $ two trillion a year globally on wars, but working people will rightly feel patsied when they are expected to pick up the tab in radically increased arrivals competing for a shrinking portion of the annual budget and Labour market.
      Are the people who cause the problems doing their bit?
      Anything but.
      Their attitude is captured beautifully in micro with the attempt of Coca Cola to sabotage can recycling in the NT,despise the public that gives them their livelihood, shit on “community” , self first, then self then self again!

      Now, obviously asylum seekers are of a special category.
      The exclusion of Afghanis, Palestinians, Iranis and others from designated “terrorist” zones- the most needsome of all the world’s disadvantaged- on the basis of bogus “security” intended to bolster the “War on Terrorism” myth, ensure that these people, like many unemployed Australians, are victims, by association, of an employer push to complete the destruction of equitable distribution of wealth in a democracy.

      Quite simply, the fear and loathing beat-ups of a decade ago ensured the refugees would be identified as part of the labour deregulation/welfare state dismantling process .
      For this inscribed conviction, you need to blame Howard, Murdoch and the Hansonists, not the wider masses who are fed misleading disinformation and emotive claptrap.

      In the absence of more reliable and accurate news, they will continue to remain suspicious of newcomers, their fears reinforced by the Abbotts, Hadleys, Joneses and Morrisons of our society.
      Hope above helps, eagerly anticipate the usual good faith, ever-forthcoming constructive engagement in dealing with the problem of changing blue collar attitudes, given the damage already done.


      • Hypocritophobe March 8, 2013 at 10:18 am #

        “In the absence of more reliable and accurate news, they will continue to remain suspicious of newcomers, their fears reinforced by the Abbotts, Hadleys, Joneses and Morrisons of our society.”

        Forget something cobber?

        Let me help.
        Insert Gillard and the entire new wave of class bigotry as per Howes.


        • Marilyn March 8, 2013 at 5:28 pm #

          Spot on, I am getting tired of people letting the racist coward Gillard off the hook when she is as if not more racist than Hanson.

          I have talked to this woman and many others who have talked to her and we are united in the belief that Gillard is racist to the core, not even the need to scratch one skin cell off.


    • hudsongodfrey March 8, 2013 at 10:05 am #

      I’m not generally enamoured of the idea that there’s a deep seated fear of not enough to go around. I guess the reason is just that it strikes me as irreconcilable with the obvious life of plenty that we lead. We shouldn’t be insecure, and yet we are. So if we’re to understand it at all then what I think you’re picking up on as being “deep seated” may also be something I’d describe as irrational.

      Is xenophobia just a kind of ingroup bias, or an outgrowth of tribalism that itself evolved out of the need to coral resources when human life was so much more tenuous? Is that where the sense of not enough to go around comes in? And what if people are driven by something so demonstrably untrue are we to do when rational persuasion fails?


  5. helvityni March 8, 2013 at 9:20 am #

    “….what Peter Reith implied about boat people, how Brough approached the Aboriginal issues, what Morrison said about refugees, have all been incredibly insensitive and wrong, inhumane”.

    I posted that yesterday on the Drum, and did I got abused, my ‘shadow’ was telling me I was naive, frivolous, i was speaking as a Labor sider…

    Good article, Jennifer. You are right, the xenophobia really got a huge boost from Hanson and Howard.


    • Hypocritophobe March 8, 2013 at 10:22 am #

      How soon we forget.
      Processing offshore,after claiming you never would (because of it’s ‘sudden need’ through propelled, manufactured fear of foreign risk) is what Gillard did.If the Julia supporters here have any credibility they will start to acknowledge this or be rightfully condemned for sanitising history.Which is another little Johnny trait.


      • helvityni March 8, 2013 at 12:03 pm #

        Hypo, I have said many times that to become a leader in today’s Oz you have to be anti asylum seeker; so both Julia and Abbott are fighting for the redneck vote…
        I don’t like like it, but I prefer Labor, and whatever anyone says I don’t think many Labor people want Rudd back; Labor likes Turnbull and Liberals are keen on Rudd…

        It was not always like this. After the white Australia policy died, it was not bad at all; also these days there aren’t any issues that both parties work together to advance, it’s all adversarial, not bipartisan.


        • Marilyn March 8, 2013 at 6:09 pm #

          Well if you want a racist leader good for you Helvi, I don’t.


          • Hypocritophobe March 8, 2013 at 8:13 pm #

            Gillard is dead meat.
            One down……….
            She will not make Easter.


          • helvityni March 9, 2013 at 8:36 am #

            Marilyn, if you prefer Abbott, Morrison, Pyne, Hunt, Mirabella, the Bishops…and the rest, it’s fine by me. The asylum seekers will be even worse off, is that fine by you.?


            • Hypocritophobe March 9, 2013 at 9:29 pm #

              Other than the threat of TPV’s which would be pointless now,how would the Libs be worse?


              • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 6:01 am #

                I generally regard Hypo’s comments highly, but to that one I smile and shake my head and think WTF?
                I suspect that things could get VERY worse, VERY quick , but then I’m one of those cowards who, on seeing a large fin cut through the water, won’t necessarily dive in straight away.

                BTW, while I am here, thank you Julia and Kevin for the new set top box, marries well with my Sony and means I don’t have to blow a grand on a new telly just yet.
                Also, that $ grand a couple of years ago…


  6. gerard oosterman March 8, 2013 at 9:46 am #

    Often a reason given for xenophobia is the fear of being overwhelmed by foreigners, a kind of armada descending upon our shores. Just reading this morning that over 600 000 people are at present living in The Netherlands that are not Dutch. Very few are living on welfare or social benefits.
    With The Netherlands being one of the most densily populated countries in the world one would have thought there would be an outcry, but, apart from Geert Wilders spouting his anti islam message, things seem to idle along reasonably well there.


    All the best with your law degree Jennifer.


    • hudsongodfrey March 8, 2013 at 10:30 am #

      Thanks Gerard,

      Remind me to read you first in the future, it would have saved me the outpouring of angst I have over the worse part of our nature, because the answer is probably as obvious as the example you’ve provided illustrates.

      What do we know about good news stories, if not that we seldom hear of them?

      So maybe the way to deal with this issue is to not hear about it. Doing the right thing may not be quite uncontroversial, but it it should be. So it seems to me that as immigration minister I’d embargo reports of boat arrivals for a start. We should be dealing with this problem as Fraser did when we brought in 20,000 Vietnamese and Cambodian refugees per year for several years in the 80’s. He just shut up and did it, and was able to do so by the way because he’d bi-partisan support for it. Why? Because it was the right thing to do as is helping the asylum seekers today by taking them from the Indonesian camps. Same problem, same solution and same non need to use it as a political football.


      • Hypocritophobe March 8, 2013 at 10:47 am #

        The right thing to do,aka fair go was a community asset.
        To regain it, we must stop blaming the media for everything, and installing politicians based on the principles we aspire to.
        Believe it or not there are enough honest people out there to analyse an election, and say”fuck me dead,the results seem to indicate X,Y or Z.”
        I think you know where I am going so I won’t regurgitate it any more.
        Don’t vote for ‘any’ arsholes, not just the second worse arsehole.

        In the end if we really are surrounded by racist red-necks then the sooner the peril from the North invades us the better.
        Paying to breed more red-necks IMO has failed dismally.It encourages more of the same parochial,Aussie day flag crap which says”my home grown kids are more valuable than any of them nasty little invading types.”
        Australia is a mess and we need good leadership to help us find our way.If it takes us several elections to get the message across so be it.I for one refuse to support the installation of one ‘profit by xenophobia muppet’, over the other.
        Corporations (via the economic rationalist agenda) have hijacked/kidnapped our identity.It was a very subtle identity, one which did not scream out for description every five minutes,like the US.We have simply forgotten how to relax and tolerate, which used to come a little more naturally.
        Of course there are many underlying factors which contribute.But the endless cycle of enslavement,lust for stuff,drugs to dull the pain, dollar worship, etc, all took their toll.

        Congrats to JW on her next journey.I’d like to say more about that pilgrimage later.


        • hudsongodfrey March 8, 2013 at 11:08 am #

          I think you’re wrong about crusading on this issue and so have I been. I think we need to do the right thing quietly and if that means saying the media are culpable in pushing Hot-Button issues then that is where the criticism should lie.


        • paul walter March 9, 2013 at 10:34 am #

          On this we agree.
          Had I read the thread starter more closely the first time round I would have grasped the centrality of Jennifer Wilson’s revisit of her post traumatic stress disorder and the magnitude of the effort that must have been required overcoming the memories and side affects of that ferocious past..
          Triumph of Audacity.
          Also, the application of personal experience in comprehending more intimately the refugee experience- can you imagine what a “dog” it must be to be locked up in some sweaty tropical detention centre, day in, day out, with nothing to relieve anxiety, tension and depression.
          As it is, I think the refugees who have been settled into to our community have done wonders adapting to Australia and getting on with their lives also.

          Can I add that I have nothing against such people?
          Good luck to them, I know it can be a big battle crawling out from underneath a psychological rock, in adversity.
          I wish global oligarchy would help ALL the people living in misery in the developing world- say $300 billion a year- needed against a couple of $trillion a year wasted on defence and war.
          AlI I’ve basically said is that it probably won’t happen, given reality , rather than that I don’t want it to happen.


  7. helvityni March 8, 2013 at 10:08 am #

    Greece seems to have much bigger problems than us with migrants and asylum seekers…it’s turning very ugly over there..

    It’s a small poor country, so one almost understands peoples concerns , it’s nothing like that here.


    • hudsongodfrey March 8, 2013 at 10:31 am #

      It’s the austerity putsch, and it goes to Elizabeth’s point that the ugly side of tribalism comes to the fore when people are insecure.


      • paul walter March 8, 2013 at 10:55 am #

        Some one finally “gets” it?
        btw, that was my point, in response to, Elisabeth.


        • hudsongodfrey March 8, 2013 at 11:09 am #

          I hope Elizabeth reads that and feels a little better received, or at least less ranted at!


          • helvityni March 8, 2013 at 12:10 pm #

            Paul&Hudson, so pleased you took my ” subtle hint” and visited Elzabeth’s blog . 🙂


            • paul walter March 8, 2013 at 1:17 pm #

              Yes, it was an eye-opener.


            • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 9:39 am #

              Yes it is interesting how different people seem to wish to be engaged differently in conversation.

              The interesting thing I learned about Elizabeth’s blog that differs from many others I’ve seen is that the format doesn’t support commenters replying to one another. Which explains why she hasn’t initially waded in up to her elbows in vigorous riposte the way that Doug, Hypo, Paul and I might. And indeed she possibly finds that whole process a little too confronting. But she’s very civilised in that regard and I respect her for that. I certainly don’t think her blog is the worse for being different and slightly unfamiliar to me, it’s just another place to be enjoyed in the same way that we enjoy the company of people who’ve different sensibilities.

              When it comes to what my sensibilities are then I look at the whole exercise completely differently.

              These days I find the Drum to be infuriating with so many interesting topics closed before comment is possible. Indeed whenever I do engage others on forums I very much always prefer discourse with people who are willing to challenge my ideas. I come from the kind of admittedly male centred working environment where language that might otherwise be interpreted as abuse is used as terms of endearment. The only thing that offends me is being boring and as such I find being in furious agreement with others probably comes closer to offering offence than does risking an honest disagreement. I consider it to be one of the great honours we can do one another when we’re willing to take that risk of being found out, of exploring the spaces between emotional intelligence and rationality, and essentially of sharing something genuinely of ourselves.

              We do of course prefer to conduct this discourse somewhat pseudonymously because being spared the task of reconciling our public lives with our private musings means that if anything we’re able to be more intellectually honest.

              I’ve treasured the time and the discourse we’ve been able to share on this and other blogs, and only wish there were ways we could continue to contribute here so that Jennifer is spared some time to pursue her studies. If there’s anything I could do in that regard then I’d be happy to be involved.

              Good luck Jennifer “May you always know the truth, and see the lights surrounding you.”


              • Elisabeth March 10, 2013 at 10:21 am #

                Thanks for the understanding, Hudsongodfrey. I enjoy Jennifer’s writing but when I’m brave enough to make a comment and follow the comment’s thereafter I can feel overwhelmed at times. And I wonder that Jennifer doesn’t make more of a response to the comments on her own blog.

                It’s not so much the ideas or the conflict. It’s the relatively intemperate language. It’d be different if we were sitting together talking, I’m sure. We’d pick up on tone of voice and gesture and the odd insult might wash over us as endearing.

                But it’s different when it comes in written form. For instance, Paul Walter’s response to my comment earlier was fine but he began with the words, ‘Silly Jenny and Elisabeth!’ the rest of his comment was sound and reasonable and in the normal course of events I might have wanted to say more in response but not when I’m called ‘silly’ to begin with. Or did you, Paul, intend a comma after the word silly, in which case you might have been referring to the situation? I sometimes start a sentence ‘It’s funny…’. Maybe you Paul W meant to write ‘Jenny and Elisabeth, it’s silly… ‘ in which case I read it differently.

                Sorry to be pedantic here but No place for sheep, at least its comments section, is probably no place for people who are sensitive to the meaning of words on the page when there are so many ad hominem remarks splattered across the screen.

                I’ve been reading this blog long enough to recognise that the gang who regularly comment seem to be left leaning. They seem to care, as do I and Jennifer I suspect, about things like decency and honesty and justice. They seem to care about the underdog, the dispossessed, the abused and ill-treated, but the belligerence with which some make their points sometimes can be enough to make me quake in my boots. And I’m tougher than you perhaps think.

                I understand from what you write here Hudsongodfrey that you and perhaps others here enjoy it that way. And that’s fine, but if you’d like a few newcomers to join the party you might consider toning things down a notch, otherwise we get scared off. We might read Jennifer’s words, resonate with them, have something to say, but we won’t otherwise engage. And you’re one of the most temperate I’d say, along with Helvi and Gerard and a few others whose names don’t immediately come to mind.

                Norman Holland wrote a terrific paper on Internet regression. It’s an oldie but a goodie and worth a read if you and others haven’t seen it before. http://users.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/holland.html

                Thanks again, Hudsongodfrey for making room for this relative newcomer.


                • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 10:54 am #

                  Quite right Elisabeth, as it happens I posted yesterday acknowledging that I had scanned rather than read the thread starter and earlier comments.
                  This was a mistake, since the thread starter was a nuanced thing rather straightforward.
                  I spotted a couple of critical comments concerning the western subs through the thread and I know it is commonplace to look down on and despise and ridicule working class people, as a week’s viewing of TDT or ACA, or listening to Ray Hadlee or reading of the SMH, or even a visit to some blogsites, to me, will amply demonstrate.
                  I’ve sensed a dislike for blue collar people (men specifically all tho not exclusively) from some feminists in the past and am still a little reactive of some of the treatment meted out in the past from that quarter- far harsher than I’ve generally dished out myself.
                  The weather over the last fortnight here has exacerbated a bit of depression I am
                  susceptible to and I t hink the same has applied to others posting from SE Australia, hence some
                  of the irascibility of both myself and others.
                  So, apologia pro what-not.
                  I am not an ogre, I just write like one.


                  • helvityni March 10, 2013 at 11:12 am #

                    Paul you are NOT an ogre, just sometimes a little grumpy, like most of us are at times; in my case the grumpiness is mainly caused by hot and humid weather, other wise I’m fairly even tempered as hubby can testify…when I can’t stop his loud snoring ,I ‘sweetly’ drag myself upstairs, it’s easier and less problematic than telling him to do just that..


                    • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 11:31 am #

                      It’s all a compromise in the end, isn’t it Helvi?
                      Am sure when your better half reads above he will eagerly concur..


                    • helvityni March 10, 2013 at 11:42 am #

                      Paul, you are right about it always being about compromise; as long as we all take turns at the compromise : soms meer, soms wat minder, as the Dutchman says when he takes the fuller glass of his favourite Shiraz.. 🙂


                • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 11:32 am #

                  Thanks Elizabeth I’m glad we could come to a better understanding of one another.

                  I take the view that bravery is not required if one doesn’t own their internet persona so viscerally as to be hurt by the barbs of obvious idiots on the one hand, or to be closed to the incisive riposte of those who’ll challenge you to change your views on the other. You clearly have great enough intellectual strength to sustain either.

                  When it comes to the idea of internet regress, sure there’s something to it. One doesn’t argue with people who get off on pure abuse because you know they’ve already lost the argument.

                  When I mention intemperate language then I speak to a lifetime of practice in the delicate art of swearing properly. Recently on Bob’s most intemperate blog I was offered the C’word by another poster who I don’t know. Yet I immediately recognised that they had done so with considerable poise and far from offering them offence conveyed my sincere congratulations. They responded in kind in what was one of the more pleasing exchanges I’ve had among many in various forums.

                  So as one who views profanity as a form of social adhesive I am no less aware it can also take the form of a poor and often witless form of insult. On occasions when I have been moved to take somebody down I deliberately exercise a far more creative vocabulary, leaving them in no doubt as to their error. And I often regret it because it ends debate on an unproductive note.

                  I am as always one who regards more and better speech to be the best antidote to bad speech.

                  You and I will choose our words differently than Jennifer, Doug, or Hypo and I, but you may think of be kindly I hope as a C’word in whatever other language you choose to employ. I hope I am perceptive enough that regress is unlikely to overtake me. 🙂


                  • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 2:01 pm #

                    Were I less Neanderthal in my computing skills I’d gladly relay on a beaut cartoon down loaded yesterday at FB, but will content myself with the offer of a description.
                    The cartoon is split down the middle. On one side is a stale matriarch at her computer, hair in curlers and teeth out, cig drooping from gob, vile rabbit-eye slippers on. Replying to her from the other side of the split is an equally egregious male specimen; bleery, singlet, unshaven, paunchy, beer cans about the place also hunched over his pc.
                    He is replying to the woman.
                    “You are a model?” he asks, some what feverish,
                    before replying,
                    “I am a Chippendale (male stud) dancer who races speed boats, what’s your sign?”.
                    Seemed to sum up at least some of what Elisabeth’s link discussed, if only through grey humour.


                    • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 2:51 pm #

                      Google tallhotblond.

                      It happens though mainly to those who are complicit in their own downfall I hasten to add.


                • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 12:04 pm #

                  Yes, took the risk and went to the link.
                  Am I supposed to be laughing fit to rof?
                  Am proud to announce none of the regressive traits mentioned apply to me, as far as I know, and am hence a better, more relieved blogger for having taken this current equivalent to the Kool Aid Test.
                  I can add confidently that some of YOU out there need to take a good look at yourselves, though.


                  • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 12:15 pm #

                    It is interseting to say the least that there is now suddenly an expaectation to modify the tone of conversation so that it complies with the wishes of another blogger, to one that matches their blog and their sensibilities.
                    Perhaps you can all pass the hat around for some Glen 20 and sanitise it too.
                    The world I live does see people communicate differently, as pointed out.Maybe when we are sitting around the dinner table with the vicar at the head table.
                    If you tried that on at a train station is slum city how would you go?
                    Harden up princess,is all I have top say.And if that comment offends the eventual recipient /s ,it was probably meant for them.

                    If this blog ends up like the morgues out there, or at the other extreme, something like the Ellis battles, I and probably others would stay away in droves.
                    Personally I find it a bit rich for people to expect(demand by stealth??) that all behaviour,blogging and conversations match/appeal/comply with the own house rules.That’s why there called house rules.Throw people out of your own dinner party.


  8. samjandwich March 8, 2013 at 11:59 am #

    Well Jennifer, sometimes I struggle to say I enjoy your articles, because the subject matter is often so incisive as to make this stratified morsel wonder whether it’s all pointless. “Instead of broadening our minds and hearts, political leaders have promoted a shameful mental and spiritual shrinking of our human possibilities.” is so perceptive that it sounds like a good subject for an umdergrad sociology essay.

    I think you’ll like studying at the ANU though, if that’s what the object of your roadtrip is. It’s a very thoughtful, studious environment, and while it’s succumbed somewhat to the push towards commercialisation of knowledge and public space, there are still lots of good people there, and lovely grounds to wander around in. Plus, the weather makes Canberra the only city in Australia where you can feel civilised,

    Or feel free to just drop in if that’s not what you’re doing!


  9. doug quixote March 8, 2013 at 1:41 pm #

    “The people are insecure”

    Now why is that? Could it be because every day for the last four years or so the people have been told “How bad things are” ?

    The Big Lie “this is an incompetent government” is in total contradiction to every economic indicator known to man!

    Is it any wonder they are confused and “insecure”!

    The Noalition’s Big Lie is like the dripping tap wearing away at the stone.

    So the poor insecure people demand security : “Give us border protection, keep out the baddies”

    When the reality is that we have the most secure borders in the world, apart perhaps from North Korea and Iceland (for different reasons Bjork, relax)

    The almost-as-Big Lie is that “the government has lost control of the borders”.

    And the Noalition run with it. And run with it, aided and abetted by the feral media and given no contradiction whatsoever by the supine media!

    And the soggy left and their fellow travellers give credence to the lie that the refugees are treated poorly. Tell me which country in the world – which country – would not intern asylum seekers if they could! It goes to border security, does it not?

    You can’t have it both ways : the government has lost control of the borders and we lock up all the asylum seekers and never let anyone out! Which one is true? (Hint : neither)

    Those whom we determine to be genuine refugees are allowed in and given proper support. Those who are not genuine refugees but refuse to leave have to be detained. Simple.

    I await ferocious disagreement.


    • Elisabeth March 8, 2013 at 5:31 pm #

      One difficulty as far as I can see lies in how we decide who is a genuine asylum seeker and who not. To me asylum seekers in the main are like abused children. Most children who dare to complain of abuse are genuine but there is the odd child who for complicated reasons might not speak the truth. And yet the tendency is to want to disbelieve the abused child, perhaps because it’s all too horrible, sometimes even when such a child grows into an adult and can speak up for himself/herself. Similarly with asylum seekers. There is a tendency to doubt they are genuine and to project all sorts of negative fears and fantasies onto them sight unseen because it is too awful to contemplate their experience and then to feel the need to make room for them, especially for those among us who feel themselves to be disenfranchised.

      I recognise there is a need for due process here but I’m talking more generally about the degree to which asylum seekers become vilified.

      I make this comment in good faith and I’m grateful for the little hints of support here and there.


      • hudsongodfrey March 8, 2013 at 7:02 pm #

        I don’t think that it is any secret that the characterisation of asylum seekers by those who are opposed to their presence here is uniformly that they’re economic migrants masquerading as asylum seekers. it is of course in the main a complete lie and one Marilyn rightly points out is directed quite unevenly towards boat people as opposed to backpackers who’ve overstayed their visas for example.

        So what would be required it seems is recognition that there is a vetting process, the standard of a well founded fear of persecution to be applied and a process for conducting those checks that we’re told may take as little as 18 hours (thanks again to Marilyn’s readiness to remind us). And I suppose that process needs to be seen to work, as does the question to be asked whether if we’ve got quotas why we shouldn’t at least allow them to be filled before sending people off to dreadful detention camps.

        What do you do though to bring people like yourself who have a laudable sense of compassion to the fore when we’re confronted by two major parties engaged in the disgraceful spectacle of using these people political footballs? This one is the archetypical Pandora’s can o’ worms, because now the genie is out of the bottle it seems like putting it back might actually come at a cost to either political party that would dash asylum seekers’ hopes along with their own political aspirations. We have a problem and I think it is with a segment of the electorate in a few marginal seats who are holding us all to ransom.

        In some ways I think Hypo’s partly been right all along, and so has Doug. People in those other electorates who are compassionate or at least reasonably morally grounded about these issues don’t necessarily need to change the government so much as to make the government change their policies.


      • paul walter March 8, 2013 at 7:04 pm #

        Yes and I agree with the comment.
        People don’t want to know, they fear getting “dragged in”, as with the Good Samaritan story in the Bible, where all the paragons of virtue side step the injured man, leaving the man’s natural enemy, the Samaritan, to selflessly help the victim for no better reason than that he is a fellow human in strife. eg “do unto others”.
        I suspect that governments aqnd authorities want to buck pass, hence the to-ing and fro-ing between the UN, offshore governments and our governments as to who should do the checks and how these should be done.
        It does seem to have been demonstrated quite early, back in the
        Howard era, that the overwhelming number of boat arrivals are who they say they are.
        As for vilification, here people like Marilyn and Hypo tend to diverge from my view, I blame the reactionary msm and Abbott for making a climbdown for the current hardline position from the government virtually impossible, imho.
        If it is solely the government’s fault , I’d by gobsmacked.


      • helvityni March 9, 2013 at 10:33 am #

        Elizabeth, I regularly read your stories, I love your latest about running away from home…we have all done that.
        ( I don’t comment as I find that your blog is a bit complicated , and the comments don’t automatically appear.) 🙂


    • Marilyn March 8, 2013 at 5:34 pm #

      Bullshit, we don’t have to lock them up at all. It is a breach of the rule of law and all human rights law.


      • paul walter March 9, 2013 at 10:14 am #

        Ahhh..but is it? You see what it should be, I see it as it is.


    • helvityni March 8, 2013 at 5:48 pm #

      DQ, You are right about reasons why some Australians are feeling insecure. It’s the Coalition shouting for months how bad things are in Australia, when in reality we are doing very well. Labor’s good achievements are not written about. Sometimes I think that many people have closed minds, and are also keeping their eyes closed and ears blocked to real things and listen The Coalition’s fear mongering only…

      I’m almost wishing for Abbott to win the race, people will find out that they will be worse off, and I can say :I told you so.


      • Hypocritophobe March 8, 2013 at 9:44 pm #

        And if Abbott gets in it will be down to Gillard, joining in on the hate enabling..And if saying I told you so is an aspiration Helvi, I can spare you one..Having said that,it is not too likely (almost impossible)to be Gillard come the day Abbott gets sworn in.She will have done the main damage and will be like Baillieu.

        Who expanded off shore processing?
        Who struck us off the map?
        Who couldn’t give a toss about Ginas 457 jobs about 3 or 4 months ago and now has a love affair with local workers?
        Open thine eyes.

        Today is International Womens Day, shall we lock up some more International women, Julia?
        A vote for Gillard is fully endorsing locking up children in detention.It’s that simple.


        • helvityni March 8, 2013 at 9:56 pm #

          what about Abbott, Hypo? What about Morrison?


          • paul walter March 8, 2013 at 10:20 pm #

            As I said in an earlier post, activists do the cause no benefit whatsover the way they attack the innocent and guilty alike.
            Some of you would do better to talk TO people like Helvi rather than down to them; because they are “quiet”, does not mean they are lacking in intellect.
            I think some times the hype comes from not being able to address the questions such people ask in meaningful terms.


            • Hypocritophobe March 8, 2013 at 11:04 pm #

              Thanks for the advice.
              But I already knew all that.
              And just because ‘she’s’ quiet, does not mean that I consider her intellectually inferior.
              It’s good to see all this ‘chivalry’ on display on IWD.

              Think of the election (why not all?) as a referendum on your principle position on humanity.
              Vote accordingly.That’s it in a nutshell.If you still come up with Gillard,I think you may as well vote for Abbott.



              • paul walter March 9, 2013 at 10:16 am #

                Well, that’s what I’ve been saying.
                The choice is largely illusory and I think, even on your basis, Labor is an iota better than the rock bottom


          • Hypocritophobe March 8, 2013 at 10:56 pm #

            I’ve already condemned them.
            Do you want me to praise Gillard?
            Sorry,no can do.

            I don’t think we will ever agree, on this.

            A vote for Gillard/Morrison etc is fully endorsing locking up children in detention.It’s that simple.Gillard abandoned onshore processing to win the red-neck vote.
            I’ll say it again.You are voting with the red-neck bloc to lock up children.
            Gillard went further than Howard ever did.That is the reality.
            She’s not humane and you can call her Labor if you want,but she’s not the sphincter of the Labor I know.


            • helvityni March 9, 2013 at 9:00 am #

              Hypo,ít’s OK by me if you side with Abbott and his talentless lot.. I’m not trying to get you to vote for Labor.

              I repeat, in my opinion the Labor is the better option, no matter who is their Leader. On the other side, I see a vacum, no talent (Turnbull only)…
              If you think Abbott will treat asylum seekers well, then you are the dumb one.


              • Hypocritophobe March 9, 2013 at 9:35 pm #

                Why do insist on pressing buttons and printing bullshit, and occupy the demure seat?
                I have never and will never side with Abbott.
                You need to double the thickness of your reading glasses or shave the thickness off the bullshit layer.
                I have continually criticised Gillard for her sameness to Abbott, and you for defending her sameness.
                I have asked you to justify,and you have not.

                Write it down.

                And instead of asking questions when you’re challenged on this,try an answer.

                And show me some proof that a vote for Labor is not a vote for the offshore imprisonment of kids.Good luck.


                • hudsongodfrey March 9, 2013 at 11:08 pm #

                  I probably shouldn’t but I think I can hazard an answer.

                  I think Labor have shown that they can do business with the Greens, and the coalition have shown that they can’t, and/or won’t.

                  So logically when you say that a vote for Labor is a vote for offshore imprisonment of children, then I take your point, but what you fail and fail badly to say is that a vote for any other part except the Greens is also a vote for offshore imprisonment of children.

                  It has been Labor policy to try and avoid keeping children in mandatory detention. Before you ram it down our throats, I’ll willingly add that this was a Rudd initiative that Gillard has evidently not followed up on. The evidence is nevertheless apparent that Labor have in the past responded to pressure to act more decently. Something that of the two major parties I think they’re unique in recent years in bending to.

                  So again Labor, or Labor and the Greens in coalition are the only real hope for refugees

                  To paraphrase the Life of Brian….

                  Suffragium pro Abbott est Suffragium pro incarcerationem filiorum

                  Centurion: “Now, Write it out a hundred times.
                  And if it’s not done by sunrise, I’ll cut your balls off.”

                  We know the lesser of two evils is too bitter a tonic for you to swallow, but nor is it fair to take out your hatred of Gillard on Helvi. She doesn’t expect you to agree with her and nor, not for want of trying, do I. But we ought to be able to articulate a view without being damned and blasted for it.


                  • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 12:18 am #

                    So ,HG, tell the punters in simple terms.
                    Who locks up kids in offshore detention?
                    Gillard or Abbott?
                    Because you and DQ and Helvi seem to have a serious problem swallowing that pill.
                    Are you insinuating (with some sort of made up reality) that the flag flying at the gate of the detention centre matters, or are you just pissed off at someone pointing out you support the whole fucking concept when next you vote?


                    • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 12:24 am #

                      No I’m not in denial about that. You’re in denial about the only realistic way to try to effect a political solution.


    • hudsongodfrey March 8, 2013 at 6:31 pm #

      I’d like to buy that rhetoric because it gels with my own political sensibilities say that the coalition is certainly worse than Labor, but a longer and more detailed look at the history of xenophobic outbreaks here and around the world tells a far more complex and difficult story.

      I think there’s some credence to the view that Hanson gave Howard a push in a direction that he was clearly willing to take, and in recent political history Labor has followed them in the race to the bottom. But sadly I think there’s a far broader willingness among some Australians slither all too willingly down that particular slippery slope.


  10. paul walter March 8, 2013 at 3:53 pm #

    Just lost a f—g post, but will say instead that although I partly agree with you Doug, I strenuously disagree that we have treated refugees fairly and that border security is much more than a bogus issue.
    I think the problem, shown up with “Send Them Back Where They Belong” demonstrated that we are both woefully unaware of the real problems refugees face (a capricious and dishonest media and press?) and that this is because we are so comfortably off any way, that we no longer recognise true suffering when it jumps up and bites us in the face.
    The Australian People have been cautious as to being roped into something proposed by advocates who then refuse to discuss the mechanics of the issue or the problem in the context of actual responsibility for the situation, as I mentioned in my previous post.
    But a thousand people drowned and tens of thousands dead-in-life in SE Asian hell-holes, does us no credit and I’m quite happy to admit my own conscience is deeply troubled by the whole mess.
    In a way, am as angry with the advocates: their often emotive attacks on more cautious people only alienates these even further, as with the often astonishingly insensitive responses of many anti asylum seeker people.
    Refugee advocates and peace protesters are not “soggy left liars”, however vitriolic and even sometimes unfair their attacks on the rest of us, however.
    They people deeply shaken that in a supposedly modern world incredibly wide spread and egregiously (often institutional) barbaric behaviours continue with no more than a virtual yawn from those not caught up in the disasters of unnecessary wars, mass famine and disease, accompanied and the complete mockery of the concept of justice- if we whinge,it is at the manifestations of nothing worse than a bloody head cold.


  11. paul walter March 8, 2013 at 3:59 pm #

    AS for Dr Wllson, I hope you live and prosper; your great problem is that like some other activists, you are too far ahead of public opinion.
    Short of initiating a lobotomy on yourself to bring you more in balance with wider public opinion, I can offer you no further comfort.


  12. 8 Degrees of Latitude March 8, 2013 at 4:01 pm #

    We’ll probably never agree on the fundamentals of policy – sound economics and budgeting, a bare-bones bureaucracy and an end to the culture of expecting others to pay your bills – but I do agree with you on asylum seekers: present bipartisan policy in Australia sickens me. I live mostly overseas – that’s not why, and I felt exactly the same when I lived full time in Australia – but it certainly helps to keep the mind focused on how ridiculously self-focused and isolationist many people are, and their governments with them. So keep up the fight, Sheeplady – on that and all the other things for which you argue with intellect and energy.

    Enjoy studying. Do NOT forget blogging 🙂

    All the best


  13. 8 Degrees of Latitude March 8, 2013 at 4:02 pm #

    Reblogged this on 8degreesoflatitude and commented:
    Some cogent thought here that deserves a reading.


  14. Marilyn March 8, 2013 at 5:39 pm #

    And Doug, we do not have any borders, every asylum seeker who gets to Australia comes here on an Australian jumbo after being assessed on Christmas Island.

    Any prison then is only so DIAC can find as many ways as possible to not accept their claims.

    It only takes 18 hours work, why lock people up for years.


  15. Marilyn March 8, 2013 at 6:14 pm #

    I just don’t get it. If asylum seekers from Sri Lanka fly here we don’t care, if they come on boats we are supposedly terrified yet they are the same people with the same problems.

    How stupid are we?


    • paul walter March 8, 2013 at 7:27 pm #

      Quite simply, Marilyn, we live in an age characterised by a modern form of Judenhecht that has been rivetted into the heads and hearts of less intelligent people than yourself.
      You once told me that your IQ is significantly higher than much of the public, so like Dr Wilson, you would only feel comfortable in a country like this if you were less than ten years in front of public opinion.
      I truly doubt that you would choose to lose the priceless gift of strong intelligence just to get on with Hansonists.
      But they are in the exponential majority and the system thoughtfully ensures that dull folk have the same vote as well informed ones, which makes manipulation a far easier target for those running things.
      The US, for example, is gridlocked also, because the system there gives red state crackers the same vote as Massachusetts professors, which is why Congress there is controlled by well funded Tea Party people elected by frightened and badly educated Red Staters, rather than the rational progressives we’d prefer to see.


  16. gerard oosterman March 8, 2013 at 8:42 pm #

    Yes, and there are now an extra 1.000.000 people crossing from Syria into neighbouring countries already coping with millions of displaced people. They clamber over mountains, hills and along mud and dirt roads carrying their scant belongings in those refugee checkered plastic zip up bags. Yet, we worry ourselves sick over a few thousand that come here in desperation on rotten ships and accuse them of seeking to exploit our ‘benevolence’. The UNHCR accuses us of displaying inhumanity.


    • hudsongodfrey March 8, 2013 at 9:47 pm #

      Nobody has a good answer for you.

      If we were discussing this on the Drum I imagine you’d get the usual variant of the Yellow Hordes theory thrown back at you, except these guys are white or slightly kinda brown, and who cares anyway they’re bloody Mussies! Aren’t they? Okay so what’s an Alawite between friends…..Druze too?, Now you’re just being ridiculous.

      Of course the UNHCR are right and of course we can’t take a million of them, but of the few actually bothering to come this far the way to stop them disappearing as so many do ‘neath the briny waves would ideally be to quitely and humanely take as many as we’re able without making political capital out of it.

      I guess the only way to do that is to keep refuting the hatred others are exhibiting towards these people as often and as reasonably as we’re able.


    • Hypocritophobe March 8, 2013 at 9:48 pm #

      Don’t lose too much sleep,Gerard.Julia will have them all locked safely away and under a media blackout so we can all carry on as usual.

      RIP Labor.


      • doug quixote March 11, 2013 at 1:42 pm #

        Rhetoric : Libs : Stop the boats! Labor : We’ll stop them, too.

        Reality : Libs : No chance on earth it’ll work Labor : we are letting in all genuine refugees.

        See the reality Hypo, not the rhetoric.

        Labor in combination with the Greens is the only option for your preferred way. The Noalition will never be an option.



        • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 1:53 pm #

          Howes is running the show old chap.He won’t accept Greens support.
          next falsehood please.


  17. Mannie De Saxe March 9, 2013 at 12:54 am #

    I left apartheid South Africa in 1978 anticipating a life in Australia free of the worst aspects of the apartheid police state.

    It was soon apparent that apartheid Australia treated its indigenous people even worse – if possible – than white South Africans treated their indigenous population which was roughly 80 per cent of South Africa’s total population.

    In Australia in 2013 statistics seem to indicate that people who relate to indigenous ancestry number now about 300,000 to about 500,000. The rest of us are all actually boat people.

    Racism and xenophobia are inbred in the 1788 and subsequent arrivals populations and the population at large is now treating new boat arrivals in a reverse way to how they were treated from 1788, when indigenous people were disposed of in their hundreds and thousands.

    These days we don’t get rid of the new arrivals here in the same way, we just send them back to the countries they fled from after countries have been decimated by the invasions we have perpetrated on them, and then their governments lock them up and get rid of them by other means – see records of Sri Lanka’s human rights abuses of the Tamil population.

    But back to the political argument raging here at the moment.

    All politicians are pushing the race buttons and we know it just got worse after Howard took Hanson’s policies and made them mainstream. They are all now competing with each other to see who can outdo who and win government.

    They are all disgusting and don’t deserve our votes at all and the main stream media (MSM) and the ABC – which is really also MSM – are as reactionary and biased as the people controlling them. What difference is there between our federal politicians and out state ones, not to mention even our local government ones – with a few notable exceptions.

    I am too old to go back to South Africa and even there xenophobia and apartheid hold sway as the ANC government demonises the asylum seekers from Zimbabwe and other parts of violence-torn Africa.

    Where is this racism absent? Not too many countries around the world!

    Mannie De Saxe


    • hudsongodfrey March 9, 2013 at 10:41 am #

      And yet Martin Luther King has his own holiday in America.

      For a long time Australia did not give Aboriginals the vote, and we took away their children to further disenfranchise their society. Earlier we had done even worse things.

      In South Africa if they couldn’t exactly enslave the black man then they enacted an apartheid regime that achieved almost the same effect, possibly even worse in some ways since slave owners were known to take care of their “possessions”.

      The very history of African Americans is inextricably linked to slavery, and even after a bloody civil war it took another century for the civil rights movement to do what some think is the most remarkable and well met thing we may have witnessed in a very long time.

      Australia you may recall along with most of these other countries was also very tardy in granting women the vote. In what some would say is a perplexing fashion, we regard the granting of the vote to women and later to aboriginals along with the apology for the stolen children as watershed moments in our history with a certain amount of pride yet very little residual shame for what went before.

      South Africa had its truth and reconciliation commission and Nelson Mandela who is now a very old man and perhaps not long in this world will be lauded and eulogised more enthusiastically than six Popes.

      But Martin Luther King Junior succeeded more comprehensively than any other leader we have seen before or since anywhere in making a moral case by preaching a few perfect words

      “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”

      He did not simply enlist peoples emotions, but in the space of that sentence alone captured their rationality, held it for a moment, and turned it over to look underneath like a child does a rock. He changed their minds about something that was wrong.

      It is critical that we understand that we do see the positives in the progress we’ve made towards what are better moral positions. And we see them in the light that we do because we have to reconcile ourselves with the past and move forwards. Less dramatically than in the space of the few short years that the American civil rights movement took we have nevertheless also changed our minds, generally on a trajectory that perhaps only King could have so aptly described….

      “The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice.”


      • doug quixote March 11, 2013 at 1:46 pm #

        Australia you may recall along with most of these other countries was also very tardy in granting women the vote.

        Not so: We were at the forefront. Try using Dr Google before engaging the keyboard!


        • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 1:57 pm #

          And from what we know Australian women will soon use that vote like a flow of lava on the first female PM.
          Irony ,justice, Karma and democracy all rolled into one.

          I hope you have a Plan B Doug.
          At this rate you only have a term or two to wait, before you unleash it.


        • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 2:54 pm #

          Depends on how far either idea would be considered overdue whether one might constructively be able to use the word tardy!

          But I will tell you one thing for free, that if I’m going to write like that to try and stir these desperate cynics out of their ideological fug, then I’m damned if I think it is good enough to nitpick!


  18. gerard oosterman March 9, 2013 at 8:59 am #

    Even people doing good can be racist like buggery. We know people doing voluntary work raising money for hospices and other good things. They volunteer and work for nothing but for the common good, but boy, mention refugees or boat people and they foam at the mouth .It is almost innate. Is it an Anglo gene? I know that the UK has a big problem with non-Anglos as well. Rioting in the streets and stone throwing at anyone smelling of soap or a spicy curry are not rare.
    Like the UK, Australia is an island and for most the rest of the world is still a coffee stain on the map. I bet the good doing volunteering crowds would have trouble finding Syria or even Bali on a map. Some say, that “after Bali we will visit Indonesia next”. Even when they travel some seem to not know where they have actually traveled to.
    We were shocked that at high schools students can chose between learning history or geography but not both. Is that still true?
    I wonder how many know the capital cities of countries, something we had to know when I went to school in Holland together with learning at least another couple of languages.
    Is it perhaps a matter of learning a bit better and more, of the world we live in?.


    • P.J. March 11, 2013 at 3:44 pm #

      Gerard I hope you were not referring to Britain as being a coffee stain on the map, or indeed comparing their education standard to any other country. The Brits have many faults just like the Dutch but they are apart from the Irish, yes don’t laugh the Irish, the most educated people in the world.

      As for racism, the Dutch are just as racist as the British, I know because I am married to one and have studied their culture for the best part of fifty years. Yes they are liberal, worldly wise, and yes just like the Brits have their racists.


      • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 4:11 pm #

        The ‘best’ (insert appropriate adjective) parts of racist Apartheid is originally from Dutch blood,isn’t it?


        • P.J. March 12, 2013 at 8:35 pm #

          Indeed it is. I have relatives by marriage living in Holland, they make our racists look like social workers. In fact anything that is not Dutch, is suspect. They don’t even like their cousins the Germans. However, having said that, they are very good painters I believe 🙂


          • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 8:56 pm #

            Didn’t Aussie soldiers in WWII refer to the Dutch as a cross between a German and a pig ?


            • hudsongodfrey March 12, 2013 at 9:57 pm #

              Is one of the things you most despise about Gillard that in your view she may be a racist? I know others here to has said as much.

              And then to see one of us write this?


              • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 10:06 pm #

                Keep trying to score hits HG.
                I was pointing out the reality of racist/racial stereotypes.
                I heard this reference from my father, and it is pertinent to the discussion here.
                Do you assume I agree with it?

                My best and longest term friend is Dutch

                What other bits of historic data should I avoid ?
                And a list of reasons why would be nice,too.
                And have a look at what Gerard said ^ which triggered the reactions above and issue equal criticism.
                Else you be labelled a……………


                • hudsongodfrey March 12, 2013 at 11:01 pm #

                  Glad to hear it regardless of a context I don’t quite buy your defence for.


                  • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 11:09 pm #

                    Really? Whats’ YOUR defence then?
                    What are your highly principled and consistent reasons for ignoring gerards comments???



                    • hudsongodfrey March 12, 2013 at 11:31 pm #

                      Or just not having an issue with what he said either way!

                      You’ve read racism into it, and whether you’ve meant to use it as an example or not you’ve compounded any unintentional racism on the part of others by superimposing your own.

                      There should be a kind of Godwin’s law for racism I think. It can get to be a bit like asking the defendant when he stopped beating his wife. Every denial an innocent person makes digs them deeper into the mire.

                      Racism so the tests will show, may be innate in all of us, but that doesn’t mean we can’t rise above it. I didn’t and don’t think your’s or P.J’s comments rose above too much at all. It sounded to me more like saying two wrongs made a right if somebody else might be being racist then we can be equally so back at them…. And that makes a difference how?


              • jo wiseman March 12, 2013 at 10:16 pm #

                Racist taunts beget racist taunts, hudsongodfrey. You appear not to have noticed what the “anti-racist” above said after he complained about people doing good being racist like buggery. How could a Hypocritophobe worthy of the name let that one go? Hypo doesn’t mince words in a good mood and he’s not in a good mood.


                • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 10:37 pm #

                  Actually HG is just plain wrong anyway.
                  There are many things I condemn Gillard for, but I leave the racist tag to Marilyn,because she knows what she is talking about.
                  My mood here is based on the level of accountability people have to their words.
                  And that includes myself.
                  HG is just another Gillard groupie.Despite the fluffy denials now and then he always falls back on the same home base ‘Terror-Torie’.
                  But thanks Jo, for pointing our what HG glossed over in his rush to shut me down.
                  The history rewriting continues unabated,it seems.


                  • hudsongodfrey March 12, 2013 at 11:34 pm #

                    Then if I’ve factually been wrong I apologise, but in principle I hope some will see what’s wrong with countering racism with what seems to me to be very much like more racism.


                    • P.J. March 13, 2013 at 12:15 am #

                      For your information this is not the first time Gerard has made a passing racist comment about, his words, Anglo Saxons and Brits. My reply to him was to set the record straight, I will not let comments pass that I know to be utter horse shit. I do not have a racist bone in my body.

                      If you missed the whole thread I have been happily married to a Dutch girl for over forty years.

                      To accept a racist a taunt no matter how it is delivered, is in essence, agreeing with the said racist comment.

                      If you know of some other way to show your displeasure when some one has offended you, please let me know.

                      If some fucker breaks into my home and rapes my wife, I do not come from a generation that believes in being P.C.

                      I would cut the offending fuckers head off with a chainsaw. I would not sit him down and ask him why his dad wouldn’t play football with him. or indeed offer him coffee and cake. and a nice hug… ,


                    • hudsongodfrey March 13, 2013 at 12:21 am #

                      Two wrongs don’t make a right, and if you’re offended by that, then after that little tirade…Good!


                • hudsongodfrey March 12, 2013 at 11:02 pm #

                  Nor am I


                  • P.J. March 13, 2013 at 12:49 am #

                    “Two wrongs don’t make a right”

                    Interpretation my man, Interpretation.

                    One mans terrorist, yadah yadah yadah.


          • jo wiseman March 12, 2013 at 10:02 pm #

            Didn’t gerard oosterman say up there earlier the only racist in Holland is Geert Wilders?


    • Will March 12, 2013 at 7:57 pm #

      Wow, just incredible Gerard. ‘Stone throwing at anyone smelling of soap.’ Do you have any other out-dated generalisations about English people?

      I imagine if someone were to generalise about any other group of people, you would be offended and howling accusations of bigotry.

      Unbelievable, the hypocrisy on display.


  19. atomou March 9, 2013 at 6:27 pm #

    You’re a stunning writer, Jennifer! Style, substance, heart, fervour, it’s all most luminously accomplished in this piece. Congrats most profuse!
    Decency is around in society at large, droplets only; where there is a personal interest, however, in money, in politics, in power, decency is treated with a pathological abhorrence. We can’t have decency in Democracy, now can we? Otherwise… well otherwise, it’d be Democracy! We can’t have decency in Justice now, can we, I mean allow everyone access to Justice; otherwise… well otherwise, it’d be Justice. And we certainly can’t have decency in the running of our polis, can we? Otherwise we’d have… politics: the way of running a polis wisely, decently!
    And we most certainly can’t have decency giving our morals these pesky equivocations. The shamans and the cleptocrats rule OK! Obey thy Lord for he is almighty, omniscient, etc, etc, etc… and he owns you! Know your station and stay there! That is the decent thing to do!
    My bestest wishes with hitting the books, Jennifer. My daughter has just began her Uni year and I tell you, I am bloody Green with envy. One can never have enough of -I call it, “wisdom scavenging!” Missed Uni terribly. Will live it a little by the vicarious sniff of my darling’s books and I will be a pest to her: “Come on, sweetie, let me help you! Come on, I’m your dad!”
    But she’s studying Japanese!
    She’s got me there, the little poo!


  20. Hypocritophobe March 9, 2013 at 10:57 pm #

    Western Australia sends their love to Julia.


    Imagine the massacre had she dared crossed the border.
    She has about ten days worth of political oxygen left.

    Keep barracking for her kids.Tony needs you to.


    • atomou March 10, 2013 at 11:55 am #

      Love your glee and schadenfreude, Hypo! Absolutely love it!
      I also love what’s happened in the West. It needed quite some fortitude -or boundless idiocy- to stick your hand up to be the leader of that mob and soon we’ll discover what it was that McGowan had but, in the meantime, I think gizzards will be feeling the heat of the frying pan.
      I remember with great mirth all the “tough as” adjectives her fellow conspirators assigned to her: tough as nails, etc. They couldn’t conceive that the punters thought that the “tough as” meant, “cowardly enough to stab you and everything you stood for, in the back.”
      Owey, should be answering some questions and people like Shorten should be left out of the discussion; so should a whole lot of other nincompoops who will be written up in the annals of this party’s history, as the conclave of cowards, much like the Santamaria thugs of the DLP conclave during the split in ’55.

      Just one little thing that should temper our glee a little though and that is the fact that it is WA we’re talking about. Mining territory, Rudd went for the heads, Gillard went for their long hair and gave them an ever so little haircut. The intensity of the Gillard factor, I think, is a little diminished because it is a mining territory and I’d suggest, a great many of the voters there work for the mines or are dependant upon them. Part of this massacre, I believe is attributable to that fact. Plus, of course, Barnett is not an Abbott; nowhere near as odious, so the hoi polloi thought it was a good opportunity to send Gillard the ultimatum.

      As for the question of who is the better alternative, Gillard or Abbott, the answer is, these two do not offer an alternative. The alternative lies elsewhere, in constructing a new permutation of voting preferences.
      Whether it’s Abbott or Gillard after the election the difference will be indistinguishable. Many see that, many don’t.
      I’m not sure what Rudd or anyone else, for that matter could do to this totally fucked up party. It will now take a very great seismic shake up to straighten up the caucus. Probably turn it into a human abattoir for a little while. Since they like playing the Caesarian game, let them suffer like Caesar. Let Brutus and Cassius and Cinna and Casca and Metellus and Mark Antony and all the rest of the “honourable men” fast approach the floor as the Ides of March is fast approaching our calendar.


      • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 12:35 pm #

        Riddle me this Ato, because Hypo certainly won’t. Don’t you think that Gillard has just about the hardest job in the world? heck it’s almost be easier to be Pope!

        She’s hanging by a thread in government on a plea bargain struck with Greens, fractious independents, and friends that number amongst them pricks like Howes. Need I say who needs enemies?

        And yet she’s trying with a great deal of compromise to govern a nation effectively divided by a ceaseless opposition campaign to de-legitimise the government in any way that it can.

        We may be united in our utter disdain for her treatment of refugees, but the nation at large is clearly riven by a degree of xenophobic sentiment we can scarcely credit.

        Hating some of her policies as I do with every fibre of my being I would nonetheless think for a moment of what it must be like to stand in her shoes and how deeply tiring it must be for her to deal with party factions and disloyalty when the wolves are at such a flimsily constructed portal as minority government provides.

        And thinking as compassionately as I am able I beg anyone who’ll listen for anything but an Abbott government. I cannot in good conscience see an alternative which merely transfers blame back onto the shoulders of those were comfortable in opposing to be the lesser of two evils.

        Our goal should never be to put covering our embarrassment, at how bad Labor has become in our estimation, ahead of the need for good government. Not even when good is defined as only slightly better than what the opposition has to offer. And certainly not just because the work of coaxing Labor back to the positions it should be taking is going to be long and hard.

        Maybe Gillard will not be thanked for her stoicism under fire, as she will certainly not be for abandoning several traditionally Labor positions, or for dispatching Rudd. But Rudd I think has done the less honourable thing by outstaying his welcome in the political life of the Labor party. If he were to return then it would in my view be an unjust vindication of three years of undermining his own party. And other alternatives seem thin on the ground.

        I hope that I am wrong, and it doesn’t stop me from being the political realist who’d probably concede Gillard’s replacement ideally closer to election time rather than right now.


        • Marilyn March 10, 2013 at 4:57 pm #

          But Gillard was stabbing Rudd in the back as early as 2009 as we learnt from Wikileaks cables and the Zionists and US she panders too were on his case as well,

          And I am sick to death of people claiming Rudd has been undermining his own party based on nothing more than idiot stories from the lazy PG.

          Gillard has always been a horror story to many of us. It’s only now the rest of the world can see it.


          • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 11:00 pm #

            Twitter is there for all to see and are challenges that don’t help party unity. I think if anything that the lazy press gallery (I take it that was your meaning) had their job done for them, handed them on a plate almost by a series of leaks as well.

            The pity is that we all seem to care so much about who the leader is and far to little for good government. But what really puts the shits up some in the left is when they can’t have their own idealistic way and decide to pitch a fit if you point it out.

            We all have our ideals, but a slice of them, the one that we can have or hang onto is still better for the people whose condition we lament than abandonment to a worse fate whose only virtue as far as I can see is to salve our consciences to the extent that we’re able to blame our enemies rather than ourselves for failing them.


            • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 11:38 pm #

              People(including me) want Gillard gone because of what she has done to Labor,what she stands for, and who she protects and who she is prepared to do business with.Her betrayals,her lies,her back-flips,her ACL fleas, her big miner pox etc.
              That goes a lot deeper than leadership.
              Blame the left all you want,HG.You have blamed everyone else.
              MSM,Abbott,Rudd,the right, the left.You’re running out of targets.
              Have you noticed what is at the hub of this yet?


              • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 12:07 am #

                If you’re so stupid that it all centres on hating a figurehead you have yourself described a a puppet of others, then there’s less hope for you that I thought.

                By means nominate a better leader because I’m sure the public and certainly the media are happy to buy into the colour and movement of deckchairs being shuffled on the titanic. So it may even work!

                I don’t think it would work if the only option is Rudd, and it doubly won’t if whoever we ring in is no less a stage managed poll watcher than the current incumbent. And as I’ve said nearer the election than now is smarter because campaigning is easier than having to govern with a divided caucus for six months.

                But know this, whoever it is I’d probably have to support them over the coalition.


                • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 10:43 am #

                  Gillard is leader and represent the direction and policies of the party.I wish you would stop putting bullshit to what I have said.It’s a pro Gillard disease.
                  I’m stupid?
                  OK I can wear that if your blindness and fawning loyalty is the other choice.My history on this is more than clear.

                  Here’s two more reasons why I want Gillard gone.


                  Would you prefer it in Braille?


                  • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 10:56 am #

                    So which is it that you want to blame Hypo, Gillard or the WA factions?

                    Or is it just anything that allows you to have a spray at the Labor party?


                    • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 1:50 pm #

                      Take up my offer on the free reading lessons.It’s not too late for you.
                      We all know Gillard is gone.

                      Yes it is Gillards fault and all she stands for because she is a factional puppet/figure head.So if that cancer applies to the WA chapter same deal.
                      Now as for spraying Labor at every opportunity.Not so.Don’t lie.
                      I am spraying faux Labor, and even a bloke with your poor reading skills,lousy memory retention and part time (selective) intellect knows that.

                      Labor?What Labor?
                      WA Labor was a stand out case and a good chance based on their policies.Sadly Gillards (you can call it Howes if it saves your face) poisonous brand cost them about 20-30% of their potential vote and a good 6 or 8 seats.


                    • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 2:57 pm #

                      I’m not well enough schooled in WA Labor’s policies to criticise them, but I said to you last week that people often mix and match state with federal parties. Perhaps you we’re listening.


                  • paul walter March 11, 2013 at 12:07 pm #

                    “Leader” is a very open ended term. Because she is “leader”, doesn’t mean she is possessed of the unlimited power of God or Ghengis Khan.
                    In fact, she remains accountable to the Party Room and Caucus, as well as the electorate, which should be the case.
                    At the moment this is dominated by the right faction, and the electorate is snowed by a constant wall of rightist propaganda that you have sadly bought into, which is deeply.
                    unfortunate when trying to get to the truth of the matter.

                    You know, it pisses me off that I am portrayed as an “aggressive” poster, yet others here seem to get away with unlimited abuse, without comment or moderation.


                    • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 1:52 pm #

                      I have some worms farms if that helps.


                • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 10:49 am #

                  BTW HG,
                  Nominate a leader?
                  If you read (digested) any of my posts you would know there was a time frame when this was a possible out.
                  Not now.She’s sailed old bean.This is damage control time.The union hacks need gutting and any trace of Howes or Gillard needs to be scored from Labors hard drive.
                  They might do as well as WA with a small miracle and a nuclear war in NK.Other than that prepare for the massacre which Gillard manufactured.
                  And let me enlighten you on another secret.
                  If Gillard resigns she will look weak, her ego couldn’t handle it.
                  If she gets knifed the Howe boys will play right into Abbott’s hands as the true misogynists they are.
                  See the dilemma yet?


                  • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 11:02 am #

                    I could cheat. In fact I will… I agreed with this comment by Bob Ellis,

                    “Carr, Clare, Combet, Crean, Swan, Shorten, Plibersek, Albo, Burke or Macklin. Or, if she chooses to stay on, as Barnett did, Roxon.

                    Or, if he chooses to come back, Beazley.

                    Not Rudd. He is famed for his incompetence, and suffered in his own seat a bigger swing than the Queensland average against, not to him.”

                    The list I would pen might be shorter if anything, but for what good it would do in changing your mind I doubt that it would matter.


                    • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 11:30 am #

                      It’s too late to save them.So this fantasy list is a stopgap at best.

                      But on the Ellis list.
                      (Keep in mind he said at some point Labor would win in WA)
                      (And also that the crusty curmudgeon was too gutless to let me place a harmless comment to the effect that by selecting Labor to win he had jinxed their chances)

                      Carr-NSW union baggage,
                      Clare-too soft,too soon,
                      Combet-to lead now would ruin his future potential,
                      Crean-even his family would not vote for him,
                      Swan- are you serious?Does Ellis think only Labor voters are registered to vote?,
                      Shorten- the other Labor manikin after Garrett,
                      Plibersek-potential but not now.Gillard has poisoned the female PM challice for years to come,
                      Albo-is he a mate of Obeid? If not he has a chance, but I think he would meltdown if he had to suppress the attack dog persona.
                      , Burke -linked to Obeid- I don’t think having a Rudd hater out front will work with a party who has no idea what unity is.Hell they have even lost the song book.All they know is Solidarity, and they still have no idea what the lyrics mean.
                      or Macklin-useless X10. Or, if she chooses to stay on, as Barnett did,
                      Roxon- the best choice of all.She has vision and insight.That’s why she snatched it.She could see the train-wreck about to happen.

                      Or, if he chooses to come back, Beazley. ROFLHe’s too busy doing Father Christmas gigs at the US embassy.

                      Looks like a part of Bobs anatomy is on fire.Ask him it’s his arse or his elbow, but try not to confuse him when you ask.

                      Labor’s problems are far and wide, now, and Gillard personifies them all.


                    • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 2:49 pm #

                      You’re too bitter and twisted to even try?


                    • helvityni March 11, 2013 at 12:06 pm #

                      I asked M Ryutin on BE blog to list the capable and competent people on the Coalition side, I also asked him not to do a Frank( the other Liberal) who has not answered the questions re; the Liberals’ great achievements.
                      Can you list them here Hypo, please.

                      We might have to start importing politicians from overseas, if the home-rown are ALL hopeless


                    • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 2:51 pm #

                      You make a good point. We shall await a reply with baited breath Hypo. If you’re going to virtually support them, you’d better be able to list their virtues.


                    • Marilyn March 11, 2013 at 4:24 pm #

                      The only people who ever claimed Rudd was incompetent were Mark Arbib and his spivs., the Zionist lobby and some backbenchers over looked for promotion.

                      Not one skerrick of evidence has ever surfaced to prove his incompetence but if you bothered to read Shitstorm by Uren and Taylor you would know he was more competent than any leader in the west.


                    • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 6:28 pm #

                      You too. Sincere thanks for sharing that with us. I respect yours, Hypo’s and other’s positions on this, but I think it’s an awfully dangerous strategy to have to sell ousting the guy only to bring him back after vilifying him for the past three years. Obviously what plays to Rudd’s supporters is Rudd, but I don’t know his credibility in the wider electorate is the tonic Labor would need to win the next election. I think we need someone else, and that it should not be done acrimoniously because party disunity clearly scares the horses.


              • paul walter March 11, 2013 at 11:53 am #

                Hudson is not blaming the left- absurd hyperbole- Like you and me he blames the right faction, his (and my) disagreement turns on what should be done, to avoid worsening things.


                • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 1:34 pm #

                  BS, paul.
                  Hudson is asking the left and middle left to support an obviously toxic version of tea party labor.
                  And further implies if they/we don’t, then we endorse Abbott by default.
                  This crap line has been used by each and every person here who has defebded Gillard.
                  Methinks you and the rest of the Gillardites have ducked and dived since day one.And now the fat lady is about to sing the last of the excuses are rearing their ugly heads.
                  She and all she stands for are all yours.
                  If she won in a landslide there would still not be a breathe of my body responsible.And if you read ‘properly’ what I have said right up until now,you will see it is not just the person.
                  Call it hyperbole if you want.
                  Too many here seem incapable of grasping reality via the normal speech patterns or volume levels.It was inevitable that the megaphone would come out.How else can we get you to demand that Labor changes?By voting for them?

                  Read everything I have said here criticising this government and its cardboard cut-out leader.
                  Read it all over again.

                  Especiaaly the bit where I said “whenever ‘ Gillard and her back stabbing mates get the light shone at them they play the thread bare “air-jew-gay-shern” card.
                  Or better still,just read the Ato posts here.It sums it up nicely.
                  The image of Gillards face has rapidly become the voters Ipecac syrup of the decade.


    • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 12:37 pm #

      I guess the upside may be that people often prefer to mix and match stripes when it comes to picking governments. They view ceding control to branches of the the same Federal and State party as a risk.


  21. P.J. March 10, 2013 at 1:08 am #

    Gillard will be gone before the end of March. The should call caucus, have a spill and get on with the execution. What a laugh it all is.

    Just getting rid of her to save any more people losing their social welfare, would be a good enough reason now. Let’s see if theytre stupid enough to replace her with Shorten or Crean. After all, their stupidity of late knows, no bounds.

    Sorry to disagree, but they will rue the day they shafted Rudd. He will be back, that I would put money on. I know they’re waiting to offload the past opinions of the faction that got shot of him in the media. That will not matter. He may yet be Labor’s saviour.


  22. gerard oosterman March 10, 2013 at 9:52 am #

    Yes,but the question remains; What is Abbott going to achieve as PM? Will public education improve? Will our polution levels get lowered faster? Will mental health receive better funding, will we get improved public transport, a dental scheme, increased pensions, a republic and on and on?
    At the moment it remains a non brainer. The only intelligent option is a vote for ALP. How can it be otherwise?

    Abbott is solidly grounded within the fifties. They are Bob Santamaria, the English Queen and balding Jesuits guiding him on in his darkness.
    Add to this his dubious morals of having left a pregnant girl friend, his abuse of a dying man ,Bernie Banton together with a pathological avoidance of public scrutiny over his hatred for social equality whereby he sees the misfortune of others as ‘shit happens’.

    How will Australia become again more humane, more tolerant with more empathy for others?
    I can see this happening with Gillard’s ALP and the Greens, but…. with Abbott and Co…never.


    • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 11:29 am #

      So,in the end, no change as to asylum seekers- probably even worse, considering the intemperate language used by Abbott, Morrison, Bishop and others from that quarter and the reactive attitudes these comments have revealed.
      Social policy- likely even more intolerant than now, we know what to expect from what we’ve seen in Europe, Cameron’s Britain and theTea Party USA. Circumstantial evidence of the Right’s attitudes toward ordinary people is offered in the form of Rinehart’s bellowing contention that ordinary people should have a wage of two dollars a day.
      Enviro, same us above, bad or worse. From sneaky avoidance and funny deals with developers with Labor to downright lunatic denialism superstition and hate-filled anti scientism from the hard right.
      Justice and law, both have failed, instead following offshore cues as to arbitrary detention, EO and general down grading of the habeas corpus concept upon which law must be founded if it is not to deteriorate to medieval rule by whim and fiat.
      Information, innovation and ideas; right across the western world is now apparent a hatred of logic, ideas and empathic thinking, rather, knee jerk censorship has become the norm for what escapes the FOI/ commercial in confidence net.
      So, are we in the same situation as past empires, eg Rome or Spain, at the stage where reaction and denialism have superceded endeavour and audacity?
      My voice tells me that at my age, Labor is a better bet than the Coalition, not because I don’t lose out, but because with Labor, at least there is a chance to cut the losses and slow down the out of control processes that affect us.


      • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 12:42 pm #

        (i) Oh yes, vote Labor.
        I heard on the grapevine they are going to reverse all their previous unpalatable decisions, should they get in
        (anyone see a teeny problem with that dream?).

        Oh, and another little question.
        I’ve done a thorough reccy of the contents of the government benches and cannot find a single person with Labor values.
        Where are they hiding?

        Off shore somewhere?


      • atomou March 10, 2013 at 12:45 pm #

        Yeah but also nae, paul.
        There is this nagging feeling -validly nagging, I believe- that if the Howey-Gilard clan get back in, they will see it as an enormous encouragement and rush to the Right with an even greater passion and we WILL indeed be back to Santamaria land pretty quick.
        If Abbott gets back in, we’ll get a feel of the Santamaria but I doubt that will go on for longer than a single term. Hopefully then, the believers will piss him off and by then bring back a renewed Labor; and if it isn’t renewed -and it probably won’t be yet- then they’d do the same again. Toss them out. Keep churning the bastards until they get the message that they are identical and the punters couldn’t give a stuff about which of the two testicles hangs lower.
        The best outcome, of course, is if we again have a tenuous, minority govn’t, no matter who sits on the right side of the speaker’s podium. Extremely tenuous with a stronger Green voice.


        • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 12:51 pm #

          Not if we rustle up a side order of Greens 🙂


          • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 1:09 pm #

            Have a look at WA.
            When a party backed by mining and development enables the community to abandon set values for a, taste of the wealth (ergo a share in the mining boom) look what can happen.
            The side of Greens and has been slipped aside for a double order of fries.As Ato said,installing Gillard et al(which is the current morph of Labor now, and will stay that way until a major blood letting)
            The same is likely to happen in the federal election and in Tassie now as the sheeples dream of hacking into the last forest or digging up some black dirt for short term gain.
            Happy days are here again,jobs for all, the Greenies are muted and the stinking reffos are out of sight out of mind.
            Imagine what WA and QLD can destroy in 4 years.Then add Tassie.
            And imaginge how small Labor will be in oppostion, and how useless they will be as an opponent, if they are this useless in govt.
            And please DQ, don’t come spewing forth with another list of their wonderful accomplishments, and leave off the failures(yet again) or I’ll need to hire a bobcat to deal with the growing pile of steaming BS.

            What happened in WA is a taste of what the feds face, only you’ll need to add steroids and a turbocharger to give you some idea of how badly labor will be smashed.
            Anyone brave enough to bet Gillard will remain, let alone win,let alone win by ten seats?
            She probably cost McGowan 4 or 5 seats minimum.

            Oh BTW DQ, didn’t your mate Ellis predict a WA Labor win?


            • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 1:15 pm #

              Are you sure this isn’t overstepping the mark of schadenfreude in favour of something approaching self immolation?


              • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 1:24 pm #

                The cold hard truth often gives the idealistic and naive a serious case of vertigo.
                Usually in the left side,or so I am told.
                It goes away after a while(if you’re lucky).
                Or you could try getting up slowly, and maybe even sleeping in a recliner for a few nights,till you fully recover.

                BTW your take on the timing of a new Labor leader is interesting.I disagree in that it is not JUST the leader who is off.It is the polices,the cosy relationships and the hidden agendas as well.So it would need to be a massive blood letting early and a rekindling of trust with the community which ‘might’ save Labor some votes/seats.
                But all that takes time.A last minute jockey change might lessen the time it takes for Labor to die, but it won’t save them.


                • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 2:48 pm #

                  I think I’m entitled to at least hope that after the next election if Labor can be dragged across with line with the Green’s help that they’d be capable of divorcing themselves from the necessity of pandering to the right.

                  It is a point that perhaps I haven’t made well or clearly enough that their excursion to the right is in my view a matter of expediency rather than preference. Were their political necessities different it is to be hoped that a reversal of fortunes may be on the cards. That at least is the scenario I feel would outstrip the prospect of an Abbott government by some considerable margin.


                  • Marilyn March 10, 2013 at 5:03 pm #

                    But Beazley and co. set the stage for human rights abuses by the ALP by agreeing with trying to arrest the TAMPA and then shipping refugees to Nauru.

                    Since then of course we have joined two illegal wars, become even worse human rights violators and joined ourselves more deeply at the hip of the Zionist racists and the US.

                    I have been victim of the ALP’s abuses before.


                    • atomou March 10, 2013 at 5:37 pm #

                      Spot on about Beazley, Marilyn (as well as about the rest of your observations).

                      Beazley was and still is even more treacherous than Gillard, if truth be known. He came in with this smiley avuncular look and manner and the mugs all thought he’s one of them and that he would do the right thing. He and still is a war monger, beloved of and enamoured by war toys and war boys and of the same sleazy creatures that Gillard is loved by and enamoured of.
                      “Honest Johnny” on one side of the speaker’s podium and “uncle Beazley” on the other but outside Parliament they held hands and danced to the same ring-around-the-rosy and maypole dances.

                      The policies of the party since Whitlam have never been ALP policies. The shits that entered its holy ground are impersonators. “Identity thieves” they are called, in the modern social media parlance.

                      His daughter, Hanna, was proudly
                      standing up for her pappy’s political values last night, so the impersonation seems to have sprouted new growth and the story will go on in the future unaltered. Babies will continue to be locked up behind razor wire for the foreseeable future and the sucking up to empire of vultures will continue.

                      RIP decent Democracy!


                    • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 11:18 pm #

                      If it were up to me I’d scrap the whole system and start again with some kind of Anarcho Syndicalist commune if it makes you happy, but it isn’t up to me and dwelling on the past in the knowledge we agree this country has drifted disastrously to the right is cold comfort indeed.

                      We need to deal with the facts as we see them and on a range of issues including but by no means limited to asylum seekers a coalition government has set the stage for a shift so comprehensively to the right as to turn this country most regrettably towards a pseudo American model almost too terrible to contemplate.

                      Is it irrelevant to all of you that both the Mining Tax and of action on Climate Change along with Gonski and Rudd’s healthcare reforms would be comprehensively dismantled leaving us completely exposed to the bust that will doubtless end the mining boom at which point the bastards will probably wake the sleeping leviathan of WorkChoices under a different name?

                      So you hate Gillard. Not sure I like her myself, but I if we’re too dumb to see that you don’t make a pact with the devil himself to get rid of her then maybe some of us need to be forced to take a second look.


          • atomou March 10, 2013 at 1:21 pm #

            Greens with calamari for lunch! (With a side dish of spanakopita!) Yum! 🙂

            But let me go to your riddle, hudso:
            If Gilard has a difficult job it is because that job is a bit more difficult than some other jobs, a fact she would be most cognisant of, and because she has made it so. I mean, I am reminded by a quote, said to be of the great De Mille, “If you wanna make a movie, begin with an earthquake and work up to a climax. So, she began with one and now the punters are bloody worried about the bloody climax, which they think will be… bloody! And they don’t like it! They didn’t like her beginning and now they want a re-start.
            The deals with the indies were bloody benevolent, if you ask me. They (the indies) fell for the same bad magic trick of the “Abbott is worse” card. Which he is, of course and they’d have to live with that decision if they gave him the throne but now they saw that her modus operandi in government is still the same as when she got in. Stab in the back, deceive, regress. Let them eat a few crumbs of cake, while she tends to her new face. Antoinette tended to her jewellery -same difference.

            Madame Guilotine is sharpening her blades and she is not that taken by any form of stoicism, Gillard’s or anyone else’s.

            When you get to the point, Hudso, of “hating some of her policies” why on earth do you let her go on? How many more hateful policies will it take before you say to her, “bugger off?”

            To me, it is a lot more than the shitty treatment she condemned the refugees to. It’s her whole mindset. From her obsequy to the Yanko-Israeli den of thugs, to her thought bubbles about Assange, to the cutting of the funds from the most vulnerable, to the huge welfare payments to the cleptocrats and a whole lot more.

            Nor am I enamoured by anyone in her front bench. Perhaps Pliberchek might shine one day but the rest are nothing more than the old, well known configurations of bastardy, this time in biblical dimensions.

            Nor yet, do I think Rudd as a Messiah of Labor values. He might, perhaps get them back into govn’t but to my mind, he’s is just as right wing as the rest. OK, perhaps a tiny bit less but still, a fairly indecorous sight in our Parliament.

            Rudd’s dishonourable behaviour is understandable, if you believe, as he does, the party has plunged to the right and it did so over his political carcass. What is the point of lying through your teeth about Gillard being a nice -decent, to return to the topic- human being and leader of the party? I certainly wouldn’t. Perhaps I’d get out and start another party -probably similar to the Democratic Left, in Greece- but that wouldn’t help the party which he loves either.

            If you think Gillard has a hard job, think a little about that little boy! He stole nothing, stabbed no one and showed less alacrity is yelling, long live the yank-israeli den, or Assange is a crim, or the single mothers need to be even poorer. Gillard has a hard job? Think of the single mothers, hudso! No, my heart is not bleeding for Gillard but for the old ALP. The one I had joined once with great fervour and passion and for which I stood as a candidate twice.


            • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 1:33 pm #

              Thanks Ato,
              you said all I tried to muster, and way better.

              I doubt even such an articulate snapshot will sway those who are prone to denial when it comes to ‘primate change’, but it helps the upright amongst us, to realise a few people, ‘get it’.

              There is nothing vaguely democratic left of Labor.They are owned by a selfish clique of hateful baby eaters.I cannot even find a word to define those who would criticise the likes of Latham, and say FA about Howe.
              I guess the quality of faux-Labor is fully reflected by it’s support base.
              All 11 of them.
              It’s good that so many of them hang out here.

              Tea Party one have the champers in the cool room.
              Tea Party two paid for it.


            • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 2:41 pm #

              The difference I think between supporting her and be enamoured of her is palpable, but not in my view nearly enough to make Abbott palatable. That’s the real point I’ve tried to convey.

              I don’t think people can be expected to take the responsibility to accept the lesser of two evils lightly, but in my view take it I think they should.


          • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 1:30 pm #

            I do share his general pessimism, hudsongodfrey. I have no quibble with what seems a fine-tuning comment from atomou.
            I do hope the Greens can get a boost, but the WA result is hardly encouraging for those who would like to see the system finally track back from the right.


            • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 2:48 pm #

              A hope I’m sure we all share.


  23. helvityni March 10, 2013 at 2:48 pm #

    Maybe we don’t have any True Blue Grass Roots Laborites anymore, maybe it’s all Aspirational now,these Aspirational want to join the Liberals, want to send they kids to private schools and live away from The West; they might sincerely believe that Abbott will deliver them all that and more…

    Or maybe we’ll just have little minority parties like Disabled,Mentally Ill, The Homeless and The Jobless and Single Mum’s parties. As we already have one minor party Greens, they can all join together and hopefully make a difference in Oz politics without Labor or The Coalition.. 🙂

    Oops, forgot something; we talked to some blokes yesterday who wanted to start Kids First Party, and of course we must have Pensioners Party…and Asylum Seeker Party….Gay and Lesbian,Victims of Domestic Violence….

    That’s about half the Australia, when you include the refugees knocking on our doors..


    • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 4:14 pm #

      That’s a “noice” thumbnail of what is happening, Helvi.
      It is underlayed by financial concerns (unemployment, personal debt, mortgages) against the rapidity of change and the insecurity that brings.
      People are less confident that the system will retain its old mediatory role.
      Globalisation appears to have undermined the capacity of communities to deal with alien interests, as to gas fracking for example; the system now sides with the absentee investor against even the health and welfare of a host community, but neoliberalism is a very “ideological” thing particularly with recent in feeds of contrarian US style libertarianism, that stresses the individual and her rights in abstract theoretical terms, dislocated from a “community” context.
      It deteriorates very quickly to,” whim, self will/self indulgence run riot”, and the retrenched, now private, “tradies” of the west, relying on their old blue collar instincts and past experience, also have abandoned the sinking ship- all rats for themselves.
      There is no longer a “vision thing” of the sort that Donald Horne has talked about, Australia is no longer seemingly a discrete, stand alone
      entity, and we no longer work together for a better society based on the more positive aspects of “Australianism”, as we may have done back in the era of Gorton, Whitlam, Cairns, Fraser and Hawke, for example.
      As with the Scandinavian countries and the former USA ( yes, the average American is disenfranchised, also ) we are now more likely just provinces of an empire, human inconveniences in the way of local corporations and giant TNC’s seeking to fashion the place into a more efficient quarry, backed by politicians in the places where the giant corporations head offices are located.
      Is it much different in the third world either?
      Here also people have withdrawn to the illusory promises of fundamentalism and conservatism as the state is undermined and rendered impotent as a moderating factor for the local masses against the imperatives of outside interests welcoming of the erosion of government influence and regulation as barrier to the pursuit of their own narrow interests.
      Some of my friends regard this as very 1930’s, as nations and individuals retreat to isolationism and withdrawal.
      Can reaction thrive in an environment where discourse is discouraged and information flows suffocated?
      My example for the tendency would come from Morrison’s recent poisoning of the wells; it is almost like the race hatred of European countries in the past and like that, based on disinformation and manipulation of stereotypes to produce a Manichean “us them” scenarios where forces the uninformed public to seek out “Big Brother ” protectors if they’re manipulated effectively enough.
      Given enough time, the reactionists can get rid of information and history contrary to their weltanschuang and set up a sort of “Farenheit 451 “surveillance” society,I fear.


      • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 4:25 pm #

        Morrison is a snapshot of what Faux Labor thinks and then acts on, but does not have the guts to admit it.


  24. Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 3:38 pm #

    We don’t need new parties.
    We need better leaders who stick to the principles of their grass roots velief systems and supporters who hold them to them.Not a whole lot of vacuous footy type followers excusing in inexcusable, and running an apologist agenda.
    By doing that such individuals have already allowed Labor to become a pariah to its own members.
    It seems beyond some people to criticise or protest, and yet they are on the front foot from the PC when demanding others fall into line.

    I am all for a Labor party based on what Labor was based on at the time of Rudds demise.And having the Greens as my party of review.
    We look set to lose both of those options.We have already lost the former.Well and truly.
    Gillards supporters are asserting that her brand is acceptable.To them maybe.And I’ll say it again.If you find Gillard acceptable,if your pencil slips and you ticked Abbott, the results will be indistinguishable.
    There is no traditional Labor.
    Just a choice of which gender you want dishing out (as paul would say) the Tea Party Kool Aid.


    • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 4:19 pm #

      Once again you misrepresent.
      We don’t regard them as acceptable, HG also just pointed that out for the thousandth time, just less unacceptable than the alternative. Any way, I think a fair few here would vote Green, except that the problem comes from preferencing, as all roads eventually seem to lead to Rome (lib lab).


      • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 4:28 pm #

        Show me where this Labor represents pre Rudd labor.
        Show me where they have abandoned offshore processing?
        Show me where kids aren’t locked up and adults and children self harm?
        Show where the commitment to Aussie workers was when Ferguson, Howe and Gillard go on their knees for Gina .
        I could never accuse the Gillard supporters of misrepresenting the truth,You have never even looked its way for fear of blinding yourselves.
        Your full of it,paul.You have fence poisoning on your arse.


        • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 4:46 pm #

          Ahhh you are sweet today.. are you suffering in the heat too, or actually a Queenslander?


          • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 6:06 pm #

            If I was a QLDer I would not post here.
            I’d be out shooting fruit bats and whinging about the cattle trade,of shitting of the jetty in my canalside PVC house.

            Why my postcode would turn Gillard into a winner or me into a loser, is in your mind alone.


            • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 6:08 pm #

              ‘or shitting off the jetty’


              • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 6:25 pm #

                Yes,it is a nasty thing to shit off a jetty, particularly when others are about to watch, or you don’t have dunny wipes.
                I suppose, late at night, it could work as berley, of course.


      • atomou March 10, 2013 at 5:53 pm #

        Paul, I believe Hudso -and you- go one step beyond the “just less unacceptable than the alternative” fence and that, I believe is what Hypo is trying to tell you, perhaps for the same number of times. You go to the point that says, “therefore, I shall vote for them” which is tantamount to, “they are acceptable.” What else could it mean? Will you be voting for anyone else? Will you be saying, with the only means of being able to say anything at all, your vote, that the ALP is not acceptable?
        In this indecent Democracy, we are given (and this is why it is indecent) only one way of declaring our views. A single damned vote which, Federally only turns up once every three years. And even then, it is a hampered and diminished voice with, as you pointed out the preferential system, which, if there were any decency in the politicians of this Democracy, would be clarified to the punters in no uncertain terms. At some point before the elections messages would be sent through the media, in big enough numbers to suggest that people can put a serialised number in any box they want, completely discarding what the major parties show in their HTV cards.
        There is only just this one moment every three years. That’s it. It flashes by like a comet and you have to wait another three years. The rest, to quote Verlaine, “et tout le reste est littérature.” Mere waffle. Words. Junk! So how do we show our disapproval? How do we say, “you can’t do what you want?” How de make them listen to us, if we vote for them again, in spite of the fact that we see them as the less acceptable of the two? How, in other words, do we chuck out a stinking set of perpetually self-proclaiming emperors?

        Personally, I see a couple of ways and I’ve gone over them enough times not to want to repeat them now and bore the crap out of everyone. The Impostors must go. Tout le reste est littérature!


        • atomou March 10, 2013 at 5:56 pm #

          Which of the two lethal poisons do we take? The one with the pretty lady on the label or the one with the smugglers?


          • atomou March 10, 2013 at 6:19 pm #

            It’s like asking the person you’re about to rape, which Kama Sutra position would they prefer to be raped with?
            Both leaders rape!


        • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 6:21 pm #

          No atomou, you are veering too far the other way, in my very last post I suggested my natural alliance would be to the Greens, as I’ve said so many times in the past. And in that post I suggested that even this is a not a satisfactory out come because of the preferencing system.
          Who do YOU Suggest I vote for?
          Informal is a realistic proposition except that I can’t stand the notion of rewarding five years of delinquent, obstructive behaviour from the opposition, most of all from their vile leader and his reactionary faction.
          Pitch out the rubbish and put even worse rubbish in?
          Reread what I’ve said and try to be a little fairer in your reading of my comments.
          I ALREADY know there is little effective choice for voters, even voting itself is largely illusory the way things are at this time..


          • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 7:06 pm #

            Leaving aside your natural attractions to blaming the MSM and screaming ‘ooh look, a scary Abbott,
            Do you think Gillard will lead Labor to victory?
            If not why not.

            If Labor had swallowed their pride and stuck with the Greens and tweaked the mining tax,to deliver more,would the positivity of the polls have increased?

            Since shafting Rudd, has Labor ‘ever’ been on the front foot for more than one minute (outside Gillards concocted misogynist outburst) ?

            It now seems likely that Labor will probably pollute the Greens in the Federal election, because of their attitude, causing a similar drop as in WA.
            They could have drawn a separate line in the political sand ,from Abbott, as I have previously suggested.One which included the Greens.
            Faux Labor have used dialogue to sell a false illusion that they are different while implementing more vile stuff than Howard did.Talk the talk, fake the walk.

            I cannot believe the thickness of the scales on eyes around here.

            Abbott may yet get both houses thanks to faux-Labor,Gillard and Howe, and their deception and now anti-Independent ,anti green betrayals.We should have wizened up when Gillard jettisoned Wilkie so quickly when his vote was unwanted.She could have shown goodwill,but as we know, she has fuck all to show.
            Thanks to physics and our right to vote,
            Her legacy will be shallow, her footprint will be small and her exit will be swift.
            She will be seen by history as one of worst PMs.Possibly the worst Labor one ever.And her gender will sit along side her name.Feminists and women in general will lose a lot of momentum over that, so it is right (that if the polls reflect accurately) that Gillards vote has nose dived from the female side.
            We must be due for a late Sunday night coup.It won’t be a longer wait than 3 weeks.


            • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 9:55 pm #

              Have I argued that I’m optimistic?


          • atomou March 10, 2013 at 7:18 pm #

            No need to reread, Paul.
            And there’s no doubt at all in my mind about what Hudso said either. He may correct me, of course.
            Who to vote for?
            Ok, let’s see if I can make myself clearer than I’ve managed to do so, so far.
            1: Depends what seat you’re sitting on.
            i) Any independents? How many?
            ii) No independents?

            2) Who’s got the seat now?
            i) ALP
            iii) Greens
            iv) Indies

            So, if there’s a Greens cando, you vote for him/her and then you vote for all the other indies (including morons like the DLP) before you next vote for: If held by ALP, the Coals and then, finally the ALP; if held by the Coals, you vote for the ALP first and then the Coals, last.

            If there’s only the two, you vote for Abbott, irrespective of who’s holding the seat now.

            Let me put the dilemma of “rotten, versus less rotten” this way: You do not reward ANYONE. You show your disgust at both of them. Do you want to reward this mob of impostors? Why?

            But we’ve gone over this ground before, Paul. Less gruesome is no commendation. Less gruesome does not deserve my vote and another three years to go on being “less gruesome.” I do not want a “Less Gruesome” to run my country. We can do better than that and we should. Less Gruesome has not earned my vote. If Less Gruesome wins, then so be it. If Gruesome wins, then so be it, also. I have no (more) problems with waiting another three years for another moment where I can send the next lot of Gruesomes to the bin. To continue believing that the only choice is a binary one is to perpetuate the myth that there is only a binary choice; the obvious consequence of which will be that it will be self-fulfilling. No thanks. Mai piú and Plus frigging Jamais!

            The voice of discontent must be heard. At least once every three years. This isn’t a case of cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face because one’s face has been treated with egregious disdain already. The Orwellian boot has stomped all over one’s face, with total effectiveness and… productivity. Move on from those who have caused the demolition.


            • atomou March 10, 2013 at 7:38 pm #

              The sooner their demolition happens, the sooner they’ll rebuild, hopefully with some circumspection this time.


              • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 12:10 am #

                I’m not prepared to go through an Abbott government for that to happen. We’re at a critical point where Abbott would make Howard look like a walk in the park because we have so much more to lose now.


            • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 10:04 pm #

              There’s the problem tho. We live in a real world and that’s precisely the (non) option we face. I put it to you again. Fifty lashes is nasty, a hundred worse.
              What option do I take?
              And how does copping the lesser indicate “approval” when There Is No Alternative.


            • hudsongodfrey March 10, 2013 at 11:58 pm #

              Exercising my right to correct you and without needing Hypo’s patronising reference to how to vote instructions, this is a representative democracy with preferential voting. So basically in practical terms unless you can tell me how the Greens are going to go from one to 75 seats in the space of one term then I think third parties while laudable are pipe dreams.

              Simply put if you vote for a Green who preferences one of the coalition parties above Labor or a valuable independent then I think you’re bug nutty, but then I think I can reliably predict Greens who preference that way will be pretty thin on the ground. Which isn’t to say the handful of us participating here will even read a how to vote card, but just that we know many people, maybe even most do!

              When preferences in the house are distributed anything but the standard two party preferred model is basically irrelevant unless we get reasonably close to a hung parliament again, and then as we all know it comes down to deals. I simply don’t consider it at all likely that the coalition will deal with the Greens at all, so basically what I’m saying is by all means vote Green, hoping that they have an influence on how things turn out especially if they’re the only party you can support with a clear conscience. But for crying out loud the umpteenth time your best hopes lie with forcing Labor to work with the Greens because the Greens will not be governing in their own right any time soon enough to save this country from Abbott.

              And once again for the people up the back who seem to have their hearing aids tuned to SBS or something, there are other issues besides asylum seekers that matter very much to the future of this country. Although I’d be torn of Abbott were the very model of an angelic antidote to Gillard on asylum seekers, the fact is that on just about every other issue from climate, to industrial relations, taxation, education, health and yes even the economy not to mention his weakest suit of all, Social policy, Abbott would be streets worse, and I fear for the consequences.


              • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 11:00 am #

                Justify voting for the vile policy of the Howardesqe Gillard, without playing the ‘crystal ball vision’ of Abbott world.
                I think Ato summed it up perfectly before.I do not for any time remember declaring it was possible (at this time) of having a Green Australian HoR.Or he.
                By the time we do this place will resemble a Martian death bed.
                Australians are always 50 years late and reactive by nature.
                It is possible to express in your vote the principles you support/value/endorse.
                That’s what the free reading and voting lessons were about.
                Lesson one,read what others have said(and from the beginning and as a whole).
                You could/should have taken up free offer number one, and you could have spared telling us something we already knew.
                Perhaps the lesson should have been ‘why to vote for who’.
                That should be easier for the Gillardettes to handle.It won’t have Abbott or Julia in it.


                • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 11:18 am #

                  So now you choose to deconstruct me. The problem with deconstructions that seem ridiculous being that they’re obviously made to seem that way in because of inept or perverted analysis.

                  If you want to be bitter and twisted I fully understand and indeed I sympathise with your reasons for so doing. I am perhaps less bitter and certainly only twisted in your attempt to misconstrue me.

                  When I am accused of being too pragmatic perhaps there you and Atomou make an error. I think you’re being more realistic in some ways. You see the writing on the wall for Labor as in truth might I. But you’re projecting your thoughts forward in time to conduct a post mortem complete with acerbic recriminations while the beast is still very much alive and still giving milk. If I’m so idealistic as to think Abbott is still to be resisted at all costs, or given to the view that principles are more heritable from an engaged electorate than formed in ideology then I’m sorry if that offends you.


          • Marilyn March 10, 2013 at 8:25 pm #

            Paul you simply cannot vote for Abbott or Gillard. Only their voters can vote for them and then the rest of us are stuck with these two mental pygmy racists as leaders.


            • paul walter March 10, 2013 at 9:58 pm #

              I can vote informal- as I said above- or my vote will be preferenced ultimately to one side or the other.


              • atomou March 10, 2013 at 11:58 pm #

                Paul, informal is bullshit. Just like donkey vote. Think, man, think, for Zeus’ sake! You’re skirting around cowardice. Too afraid to vote for the Libs. Too afraid he gets in and – and what? Do what Gillard is doing now? Abbott has not betrayed anyone. He is sticking to his principles. Everyone knows what he’s on about. Did you know what Gillard was on about when she first knifed Rudd? I had a suspicion but then I thought that maybe Rudd was the bastard they were saying he was; maybe Gillard was right when she said the ALP lost its way (bloody hell! what a joke that turned out to be!) Maybe, I thought they did lose their way and Gillard, being a smart woman (or so I thought at the time) she’ll get it back on track. Then one piece of crap followed another. One betrayal after another, one lie after another and you realise then that her view of what the “ALP way” is, is not my view and, I suggest, not the view of many others, too numerous for her to fight them all.
                Let Gillard fight Abbott on her own. Let the battle between our two enemies happen on their own battlefield. You look around. It may well happen that Abbott wins. It’ll probably happen anyway but do your conscience justice and don’t help anyone on this battle. Move on, paul, move on.

                Hudso, I’m sorry mate. All these redemption points you’re scraping from the bottom of a very holey barrel. Gather them up and present them to the refugees, to the single mothers, to the State Schools whose funding will go on being a second priority to that of the Private schools, to the Palestinians, to the Afghans, the Iraqis…

                Answer my question, mate. You seem to be avoiding it: How many of your principles will you allow these traitors to spit on before you say enough? I’ve already reached my threshold. you obviously haven’t so, tell us, when will that be?


                • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 12:40 am #


                  This is where you miss the point entirely. I sacrifice none of my principles when I look at the situation we have before us rationally and assess what we need to be cognisant of.

                  Okay so get rid of Gillard and I’ll still support Labor over Abbott under ANY other leader. But I may in the right circumstances support the Greens even more.

                  But this is not to say that I think that the Greens will in their own right take government in time to prevent Abbott. So in pragmatically acknowledging that beating Abbott means putting Labor back in either in their own right or leading the second minority government in as many parliaments.

                  As far as third parties in the mix go, I agree there are options and possibilities, but I can also guarantee you there are only two parties from which the next Prime Minister will be drawn.

                  Getting back to the matter of principles, inasmuch as any voter can, I take my responsibility very seriously in acknowledging that when we elect a politician and deem ourselves moral enough to look those people in the eyes who are most directly impacted by poor policy, including refugees and others on the long list you mentioned. If I can’t guarantee their release from the deprivations of outrageous fortune then I can at least say that I didn’t wish Abbott on them.

                  Nor do I stand, wounded in my pride as I may be, on a bunch of bullshit ideologies willing acquiesce to Abbott so that I can punish Labor because I was offended when our own people deserted the old banner. That my friend would be the petty thing that I think the people on your list who we need to explain ourselves to would least understand.


                  • atomou March 11, 2013 at 9:06 am #

                    Hudso, if you can write all this and not see the contradiction in your thinking, then there is no point in going on.”pragmatism” is what has ruined the ALP! I remember being part of a debating team about exactly the very same topic: Is the ALP too pragmatic? (or words to similar effect). This is back in the early 80s!
                    The dilemma of prioritising principles over pragmatism is a heart wrenching one but it is where principles must trump pragmatism. The word, of course simply means “realism” but in the political context, it means, “winning govn’t at all costs, including tossing overboard some, if not all our principles.” This can’t be right. It’s like being on board a ship carrying food to an island of starving people and when the trip is a little slower than we first thought, we begin to toss the food over the side and so, when we get there, we look the starving people in the eye and say, “at least we came!”
                    That’s crap.
                    It’s not a matter of punishment or reward. IT’s a matter of letting the party -your favourite party- time enough to heal itself. If you need a good example of this look at how relieved the NSW lot was when they lost and the air was cleared for the discovery of the O’Beid cancer! The prick had almost everyone in the party in the palm of his testicle squeezing hand. Throw the party out and let the sun shine in. Amazing what you’ll discover. With a bit of luck, the cancers sown by the likes of Howes, Shorten, Emerson, etc, etc, etc, etc and the burgeoning of the dead heads will be purged. Give them another go and they’ll go on procreating more of the same. Your love for pragmatism will kill your party.
                    And as for principles themselves, if you don’t think you’re putting any in jeopardy then, go ahead. This dysfunctional, treacherous and traitorous party, this unpredictable conglomerate of straw-spined men and women is your party.
                    Just don’t be surprised if it isn’t the party of many others.
                    The Coals will get back in. Not because they are a benevolent lot but because neither is the ALP and because the ALP has let their own people starve, just so as to get there!


                    • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 10:48 am #

                      I can’t follow you on that journey.

                      I don’t agree that punishing Gillard or Labor for their so called broken principles is and act so virtuous as to justify handing the reins over to Abbott.

                      You made a pointed but I think false analogy that I don’t accept, and you’re completely ignoring all the other damage Abbott could do. So if I wanted to turn the Analogy on its head, if we arrive in three or four year’s time in a boat emptied before we even left because Abbott’s run down the country so badly nobody wants our help any more then you’ll be happy?

                      I really am deeply sorry about this but I sincerely believe two things. One that at now of all junctures an Abbott government would be disastrous, and two that you can’t always wait for principled politicians to emerge fully formed from the crystalis, sometimes you need to work with the best materials available and push them really firmly to steer them along the right path.

                      Last but not least it is obviously true that at some future juncture we’re likely to get a Liberal coalition government again. When Howard went, losing even his own seat, they were at sea and needed to reshape themselves in a new image. They reached a point you may recognise as being similar to what you think Labor now has to go through. And it seems for want of trying that chose Abbott and imported Tea-bagger tactics from America. They could have chosen Turnbull’s way, should have done so, and would have given me comfort in sharing a view to rebuking Labor if that were the case. But if anything I implore people to see that Abbott’s choices are the ones that should not go unpunished.


                    • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 11:06 am #

                      Welcome to my (and that of tens of thousands of Labor followers) world, Ato.
                      Aim your forehead for the crimson stain on the wall.It’s about head height.


                    • atomou March 11, 2013 at 11:37 am #

                      Hypo, OK. I shall aim my forehead… etc! Very funny that one!
                      Hudso, Hudso, Hudso! Whatever shall we do with you?
                      Indubitably, an intelligent man, but whose syllogisms are so fractured that one tends to see him as a soul inexorably heading for Dante’s dark dungeon; and one calls out his name in tones of warning but his ears are dulled by his fantasies!

                      Again, you trod on the same cobble stones, Hudso: Punishment, Reward, Catastrophe if not Gillard (the boat will be emptied), We can’t expect all of our principles to be accommodated, Now is not the time…
                      But you showed a tiny hint of redemption, to wit, “sometimes you need to work with the best materials available and push them really firmly to steer them along the right path.”

                      Ah! There you have it, Hudso! “push them really firmly to steer along the right path!”

                      How firmly I agree with that sentiment!
                      But tell me, Hudso, since the only chance (if one could even call it a chance) you have at doing this, is a single moment, much shorter than the quickest of quickies, one single moment every three years, where, all you’re allowed to do is tick a couple of boxes?
                      Sounds like a pathological delusion to think that you could effect that plan of yours regarding “pushing” at all, let alone, “firmly!”

                      I love the ancient Greek way: Ostracism. Let the people decide if there’s a bastard in their midsts and let them point him out and let them send him off, out of the country into a decade-long exile!
                      But that verges, on my part of a delusion of equal pathology. It ain’t gonna happen, since the quintessence of that Democracy -that of the Demos having a say- is nowhere to be seen in our system of Govn’t, which is as distant from Democracy as my nuts are from Uranus.

                      If Gillard and her walking sticks have not already “emptied the country” then I suggest, they will the next time around. Personally, I’d rather she didn’t get the chance and, that Abbott is given the same false security that she was given and allowed to fumble and fail until the next election… but I’ve talked about that before.

                      On another note, I’ve visited the oracle at Delphi, the very next day after Gillard usurped the throne and the oracle told me that she is warming the seat for Shorten. The sad thing is that she doesn’t know it. The plan is Shorten’s (and his walking sticks, one of them being his mother in law) and it is to make Gillard fall flat on her face, puke and smell so much that the punters will turn to him and his Judas ways.


                    • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 3:09 pm #


                      These are no longer coming up as replies so they’re harder to weed out. Hypo never says what he means but enjoys the game enormously of skirting around the point. Took me a week to realise he was just pissed off at Gillard because of what she did to Rudd, who he vastly preferred.

                      I think we’d all vote Green or Labor given the chance with a view to forming a Green Labor government. Correct me if I’m wrong?

                      At least I hope you’d vote like that, and if any of you vote for Abbott I spurn you as I would spurn a rabid dog!

                      And even if we did pull off our desired outcome I’m under no illusions that there isn’t a good deal of work with the metaphorical cattle prod ahead of us.


                    • atomou March 11, 2013 at 3:50 pm #

                      Sorry my replies don’t come up as replies for you to keep your momentum up. I think it’s probably better if we don’t reply but simply post with an addressee at the top.

                      “I think we’d all vote Green or Labor given the chance with a view to forming a Green Labor government. Correct me if I’m wrong?”

                      No. Let me correct the bit that is wrong: “given the chance with a view to forming a Green Labor govn’t.”

                      Not my view and not my aim because my aim is not to be pragmatic (win at all costs) but to follow my (I know I’m getting boring) principles. Principles which I hold dearly. These aren’t mere views, or vague aspirations, or fogey dreams but dearly held principles. Aims to be fought to death for. Leonidas and the 300 Spartans against the hordes of the Persian army, or like some of those in the bible: Do not smack your father over the head, and the like, only much more important.

                      And so, I hold no unqualified loyalty to either people or parties but to principles. If the Greens betrayed their principles tomorrow then I’d look for them elsewhere. And I leave the politics of parliamentary deals to their caucuses. That part doesn’t concern me. If they go for the Coals, then so be it. But, at night, I will rest my head on a guilt-free pillow and even my insomnia will be at ease.

                      Get the dif? The view only goes as far as the principles and the principles are not mere views or aspirations, they are aims. The sort that drive even the most pacific people to war. Principles, like, liberté, égalité, fraternité. Remember them?


                    • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 6:22 pm #

                      Yes I get the difference Ato, but cut to the chase and either relieve us of any fear that you’d vote for Abbott to spite Gillard or not!

                      That’s all I’m asking for any more. A simple acknowledgement that if every politician on the whole damned dance card is unprincipled that you might look into the deepest recesses of your heart and recognise the less of two evils for what it is. The best material we have to work with using a cattle prod!


                  • helvityni March 11, 2013 at 9:09 am #

                    I think the person on The Drum/Opinion who suggested that we vote Hudson to be our PM, was right!


                    • helvityni March 11, 2013 at 9:12 am #

                      …and Marilyn can be the Minister for Immigration and Gerard for Arts and Culture ( zinkalum fences will be banned)…


                    • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 10:54 am #

                      I imagine they closed the comments before I could politely decline.

                      I was however thoroughly gratified if a little humbled at somebody’s thanks for comments I’d made about the Royal Commission into child abuse in support of victims’ voices. I moved me to think somebody else might be helped by something I’ve written.


  25. atomou March 10, 2013 at 7:32 pm #

    I chuckle at the thought: The Queen has given Gillard a means by which she can show a humane side. In effect, she, the Queen, has given Gillard, the permission to allow equal marital rights to gays. The chuckle comes because I know this will make Gillard tear her hair out with anger, that she has to admit that gays are just… heteros who prefer partners of the same sex and that she must now do something about it.
    The chuckle becomes a little more mirthful when I think of Pell’s little bastard child, Abbott!
    Ho, ho, ho and let the ouzo flow!


  26. Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 8:26 pm #

    For you Ato

    “The only way that we can dig ourselves out, have got any hope of digging ourselves out of this Greek tragedy is for the Prime Minister to stand down.”
    Alannah MacTiernan



    • atomou March 10, 2013 at 8:37 pm #

      Yes, I saw that Hypo. She’s right, of course and I suggest she’s no Robinson Crusoe though I reckon Gillard is Girl One-Friday.
      I see blood on the stage boards!


      • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 9:34 pm #

        I certainly hope Labor are not stupid enough to go with a double bluff.Whoever gets the unenvaible leadership role needs to be devoid of factioanl connections.
        Nothing can save faux labor now, so there needs to be a complete rebuild.Staring it before the elction makes more sense than not preserving your best individuals.But then again the current strategists seem to be Liberal blow ins, so nothing will surprise me.
        If they do as well as WA Labor it will be a miracle.
        No-one can imagine the endless material the coalition spin doctors will have to choose from using a willing MSM.And if the polls are 30 and dropping before a campaign with balls,imagine if you can the deluge.
        I can suffer through what ever it takes to come out the other side with a party who is ideologically opposed to Tea Party One.This will take some rebuilding.
        It aint no Pantene process.
        I’d be happy to see a new party born in fact,which picks up where Gillards destruction of Labor began.If it is not a union based party, so be it.
        Perhaps the Australian Getup Party?


        • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 9:36 pm #

          Oops forgot the spell-check.
          Ad lib.


  27. P.J. March 10, 2013 at 10:37 pm #

    “The only way that we can dig ourselves out, have got any hope of digging ourselves out of this Greek tragedy is for the Prime Minister to stand down.”
    Alannah MacTiernan”

    This women is a true believer. A few years ago I had a go at her at a meeting, she told me to go and get fucked, in those exact words, then bought me a beer.She is, what Gillard ain’t, human.


    • Hypocritophobe March 10, 2013 at 11:34 pm #

      Yep, she even got pinged for pissy driving.(When she was a Minister,I think)

      She is a lot more more everything than Gillard.Strong,committed,fair and gutsy.

      And one important thing Gillard will never be.Her own person.


      • P.J. March 10, 2013 at 11:57 pm #

        All true. MacTiernan hates conservatives, she would not have said what she said, if she didn’t mean it. I just hope they don’t procrastinate for too long before they dump Gillard.

        I could give a flying fuck what they say about Rudd, he may well be all they say he is, but he is a winner. If they bring him back, they may not win but, he will do better, salvage something, more than anyone else in the party, with the exception of Combet, in my opinion.

        I just hope they don’t run with Shorten, he is as fake as a nine bob note, it will be a disaster. Copped him on Q&A last Monday he is still in denial about the single mums and social welfare. He was going on about they should all have jobs, doing what prey tell? Now our manufacturing industry is dead and gone. I don’t know what rarefied air these fuckers are breathing, but it must be a Canberra thing.

        I despair.


        • helvityni March 11, 2013 at 8:31 am #

          Have we ever had one, for years I have tried to find something Australian made to send overseas; finally i bought wha I thought was suitable for the person and cut the label Made in China off.

          There was Holden once, but now it comes from Korea… 🙂


          • P.J. March 11, 2013 at 6:09 pm #

            Yes we did helvitni, you could buy a T.V. made in Oz a lawn mower, white goods, everything and anything. Most of the people that lived in Adelaide in the sixties and seventies went off to work making something. It was good stuff too, good quality.

            Some of our politicians who have run Australia for the last forty years, should be taken out and horse whipped for what they have done to this country. This place was the envy of the world, if you didn’t live here you were camping out.

            Young couples could afford a house back in the mists of time, the women in a family only worked if she wanted too.Children were looked after by their families and not some fucked out, child minding centre. I could go on., as I’m sure anyone over sixty could.


          • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 6:46 pm #

            Commodores are still made in Australia, and replacing a German Opel badge and keyring job with Korean built models some of which have Aussie design input is if anything slightly better because the technology exchange flows both ways.


        • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 11:16 am #

          Labor has talked about manufacturing since button.
          Talked and that’s all.The arseholes like Shorten have done what exactly to preserve manufacturing jobs?
          Get in bed with big mining.
          If Labor had visionaries and not Superannuation hunters, they would have led the march for a steel manufacturing hub where the steel meets the natural gas.Then value added.
          Shorten is what you would get if you gave Gillard a lobotomy.
          (No balls to remove, so there’s a saving)
          A good bloke to look after the Labrador pup when you head off for the quiz night and that’s it.
          Combet ‘seems’ to be a reasonable remnant of old-school workers union types, but he is not PM material yet.And let’s face it, there could be skeletons anywhere, given Obeids long slimy tentacles.

          Helvi, go online and order some Made In Australia labels.
          You can get really well made/cheap Chinese ones.
          The cotton comes from Ord River or Cubbie Station.
          Great Chinese ventures!


          • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 11:16 am #

            button =Button


          • P.J. March 11, 2013 at 6:23 pm #

            Shorten like the rest of the time wasters has done F.A. about anything, much less manufacturing. None of these bullshit artists are worth the oxygen they use up.

            I would like to get into Sussex Street with a flame thrower, these self serving fuckers should be arrested for high treason.

            Then onward to Menzies house, I’m sure a bit of cleansing with fire could work wonders there as well.

            The lot of them take Australians for dead set mugs, and in some cases that’s what we are.

            You know I have to laugh my dick off, when they talk about the G.F.C. like that’s going to be the end of it now Swann has supposedly fixed it. It hasn’t even started yet, These narcissistic half wits live in some fantasy land, the Wizard of fucking Oz.

            When Abbott gets in, I’m going to laugh even more, the poor schmucks that are going to vote for this cretin, are going to vote themselves into poverty. We have dark days about to descend on all of us, that is money in the bank.

            They will rue the day they shafted Kevin Rudd.


  28. doug quixote March 11, 2013 at 1:55 pm #

    Poor Hypo, you are seriously deranged by your hatred of Gillard.

    If only you directed your energies towards something useful, you might still be worth reading.

    Talk about a one-track mind!

    If you think getting rid of Gillard would be a forward step, I pity you.


    • doug quixote March 11, 2013 at 1:56 pm #

      Have a long holday Hypo.


      • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 4:15 pm #

        Not all of us worship Little Johnny, Mr ‘we will decide’.
        I’ll take a holiday when I know the prospect of our community advancing is extracted from the talons of the scum you defend so mindlessly.
        I’ve said it ad nauseum.Criticism from you is like a badge of honour.


      • paul walter March 11, 2013 at 6:55 pm #

        Is Hypo off on holidays?
        Is this because Dr Wilson is taking up a course: unless the site also closes surely Hypo will be around for ever, to admonish we lesser beings?


        • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 6:59 pm #

          Or alternatively you could grow up,harden up,man up or whatever up you need to up, which puts your principles at the front of your conscience.


          • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 7:29 pm #

            How I keep asking it the lesser of two evils not the more principled and conscientious choice?


            • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 7:42 pm #

              The evils are lesser in your mind, based on what you think might happen.I rate them as bad as each other.
              And here’s the scary bit.
              So do a lot more people than you care to admit.


              • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 9:49 pm #

                I think those people are wrong, and I hope you’re not seriously going to keep circling that particular drain.


                • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 10:53 pm #

                  Leigh Sales says agrees with me HG.
                  Is she a part of the conspiracy?

                  By declaring the populous have it wrong,says what about you?
                  (And those who think Labor is AOK)


                  • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 11:05 pm #

                    Hypo where did I say Labor was anything but a work in progress?

                    I did earlier write somewhere here that most people who probably see me as speaking in pragmatic overtones are nevertheless being more realistic about the likely outcome of the upcoming federal election. If I’m the idealistic one in saying we keep trying while there’s still hope any of the other parties might singly or collectively prevail over Abbott, then call me an idealist for all the right reasons and I’ll wear it.

                    At least I know the difference between swimming against the current and circling the drain. And I do mean that in the kindest possible way.

                    I’m not Doug, I don’t think the sun shines out of Gillard, much less Rudd I’m afraid. But I do believe in black holes and there’s a whopper sitting across the chamber from them.


                    • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 11:28 pm #

                      There you go playing the bullshit by association card again.

                      I spoke of Rudds demise to point out the fact that faux labor said he must go, and Gillard must rule, because Labor had lost thier way.
                      You and DQHead accused me of being a Rdd muppet.
                      Wrong then,wrong now.
                      His method of execution was immoral and unethical.It was based on a lie.
                      If the the ‘lie’ meant something Gillard would have been axed months ago, beacuase her polls and her ‘lost way-ed-ness has made Rudds look like a fucking hiccup.
                      Spare me the circular shit.
                      Justify why true Labor people should support anyone as toxic as Howes Gillard based on a bumper sticker.
                      And explain to me how a sinister Labor faction who can run a state and a nation under corruption and crime is more electable, and worthy of electing, than a Bible thumping dingbat.
                      And explain to me why the those within the Labor machine,outside these toxic factions are pressing the same alarm bell button as me (and thousands of others) and you are still there giving Julia a shoulder massage as she peels the flesh off Labors bones.


                    • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 11:39 pm #

                      It’s as easy as one to four. We have our priorities and loving Gillard isn’t even on the list. Fearing the consequences of an Abbott government is! On my list it is at the top because for all your correct if bilious critique of faux Labor, non-Labor are entirely genuine in their intention to turn this place into tea-bagger central!

                      The lack of concern you express at that prospect is simply incomprehensible!


            • paul walter March 11, 2013 at 10:32 pm #

              God bless ya, HG.


              • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 10:45 pm #

                Who? Dawkins?


                • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 11:00 pm #

                  Obviously pw is a closet Christian.

                  This ‘situational conversion’ happens sometimes.

                  Generally during periods of hyper sphincter activity brought about by a sense on impending doom.

                  The Bali Nine found god.
                  Who wouldn’t facing death row if it increased the chances of keeping the game proceeding for a bit longer.

                  There will be many more temporary conversions before Gillard is gone.All to no avail.No wonder she politically fellated the ACL.Backup plan X,Y and Z.
                  Howes’ idea,no doubt.


                  • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 11:22 pm #

                    In the One legged Tarzan Sketch Cooke playing the casting agent for the role of Tarzan says to Moore, playing a one legged hopeful, “I have nothing against your left leg. Its a great leg for the role. Trouble is neither do you”

                    So I have nothing against Christians….Trouble is…..

                    There are really very few who bug me after I point out that I’ve some very interesting views on the subject that I’d love to discuss with them 🙂

                    It’s fine by me if Paul believes whatever he wants. We’re often quite unfair here when we talk about Christians as if they’re uniformly unpalatable. There are a lot of Christians who I think want to be more progressive, and Paul wouldn’t be here if his views were neither sophisticated enough to deal with robust debate nor shaped a little by it. I was betwixt for a long while myself.

                    When it comes to getting the important things done one treats ones allies on their merits. I have great respect for several priests I have known who have been willing to speak in favour of the Royal Commission when their voices were most needed.


                    • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 12:05 am #

                      Oh to be sure,’They’re’ not ALL bad,but,
                      do you have time for the vast amount of individuals who defend their religion, without condemning the paedophilia and or crimes within?
                      Should anyone? Everyone?
                      It seems this ‘code of silence’ applies to the majority of Catholics (and ‘some’ other western religions) if the number (lack thereof) of outspoken folk is to be counted.And believe me,the victims can count.

                      Obviously there ARE no votes/tickets to heaven in decency.


                    • hudsongodfrey March 12, 2013 at 12:23 am #

                      I have some time for those religious people who being genuinely opposed to child abuse may be our best allies in tackling the problem for the sake of past and potential future victims.

                      The rest I regard, as would you I am sure, to be hypocrites marked out by their apologetics. But they’re not too hard to spot, and the practice of giving each the benefit of the doubt within reason is not beyond our abilities.


          • helvityni March 11, 2013 at 7:34 pm #

            Hypo, why should we harden up, I believe in being compassionate.I don’t want to be like our Liberal politicians


            • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 8:02 pm #

              I said “could”
              and I was talking to pw.It was pointing out there is another way.

              I know, after seeing you comment over at mungo, added to your unending praise here, that there is no way Gillard or faux Labor could do a thing wrong in your eyes.
              Lets leave it at that.Because we are 180 degrees apart on the fate of ‘this’ Labor.

              And if you could could just manage to NOT make stuff up about me supporting Abbott,I’d be really appreciative.


              • paul walter March 12, 2013 at 1:16 am #

                Once again you avoid a question from another poster.
                Would thinking on the thread issues divert you too much from abusing your fellow posters?
                Helvi, of course you are correct.
                We must continue to press Hydrophobe for an answer as to h(is)er hirthoe- obscured infatuation with the Mad Monk.


                • helvityni March 12, 2013 at 8:33 am #

                  Paul, Hypo is twisting my words, I have never sung Julia’s prizes, I keep repeating that I prefer Labor, I have also said as long we get Labor, I’m not going to worry about who the leader is, even Rudd will do…
                  My main thing is that Labor has plenty of good talented people, Liberals have practically none.

                  Wanting Labor to win, I’m wise enough not to shout about their failings: because even with some mistakes, they are miles ahead of
                  Hypo has only been critical of Julia, of Labor; not a bad word about Abbott and his hopeless lot.


                  • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 10:30 am #

                    You are a liar lady.
                    Read this for starters.

                    And don’t think it has escaped the notice of people who watch your posts regilarly around the net, that one of the things common in your armoury is your constant criticism of Australia and verbal worship of all things European.

                    Your praise of Gillard is as thick as your hide in openly lying.
                    I held back out of courtesy but those critics of yours from other posts are corre3ct about your dishonesty.
                    I have no intention of jumping through hoops for you or your trolling mate Walters, who not only has a reading problem he accepts lies as falsehoods.
                    It is a clever game but I am going nowhere.
                    You should be ashamed of your self Helvi.I am disgusted to think that the person you have pretended to be could be so full of vindictive sh*t.

                    I don’t have to condemn a man I know is in bed with the religious right and who has vile things in store for us we all know he has.I do however have to condemn someone from Labor who does the same thing.And who has gone further than Howard, the ideological arch enemy of fairness.It is such a pity that your self righteous European ‘better than thou’ attitude is incapable of speaking up for a fair go, from the party who used to be its custodian.
                    Fail,lady (poetic license )fail.

                    Paul you have no balls,no brains,no reading skills and hide behind a womans skirts.(more than once)
                    Grow up,stop lying and face reality.


                    • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 10:31 am #

                      “accepts lies and falsehoods”


                  • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 12:07 pm #

                    Just to set the record straight on the deceptive comment above.Even though most readers know Helvi is a Gillard groupie, also know this.
                    It seems that the facts disagree with Helvis lie she ‘ has never sung Julias praises’.
                    Google can be a friend or an enemy of those who weave them tangled webs.

                    Throw this
                    helvi gillard drum abc

                    in the search engine and do some reading.
                    Not praise?
                    Not much.

                    And for those who care to read the politics section of this blog there is evidence that it is also bullshit that I have never criticised Abbott and his mob.

                    Keep BSing Helvi, youre on a hat trick.

                    Here’s some light humour..
                    “Someone called Julia a dill.No wonder I get hammered
                    Helvi :

                    01 Feb 2010 11:45:00am

                    I thought this site was moderated. How come ABC allows one of its main contributors call a woman a dill…?
                    If I would call anyone a dill here, my post would not see the daylight.I’m disgusted with the double standards.”

                    here’s Helvi having a big problem(like here) when people don’t focus the way she demands.
                    “Helvi :

                    02 Feb 2010 8:05:03pm

                    To all you blokes who can’t handle an intelligent woman like Julia Gillard, look over the fence and tell me what you think of the likes of Bronwyn or Julie Bishop, or the sweet Mrs Mirabella…more to your liking? Bitchy, ungenerous, heartless…I let you to judge their level of intelligence.”

                    Wow she used all those words and gets pissed off with ‘dill’?
                    Go figure.

                    There are hundreds of one eyed comments of praise for Gillard under Helvis name at the Drum and probably everywhere else as well.So to say I twist words is as I said another lie.They seem to be piling up,don’t they?
                    What to do Helvi?
                    Accuse me of having lots of pseudos who pick on you?

                    Try again,that crap is wearing thin,too.
                    I have no problem at all with your infatuation with Gillard Helvi, but I have a problem with the part of your character which mimics Gillards worst features.


                • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 10:44 am #

                  Tell you what Einstein, you make up the shadow Ministry hate wish list,complete with the criticism you require and I will sign it in blood.
                  Shall it be yours,mine or both?

                  And if you could draw your own ADHD attention to the topic title I cannot see where it says your red headed impostor friend is not applicable to the discussion.In fact my pseudo-learned friend, I would say the very fucking reason JW is having most of the conversations she has started on this site is BECAUSE of Gillards anti fucking Labor ways.
                  I know It’s all too much for you,isn’t it petal?


            • paul walter March 12, 2013 at 11:55 am #

              Helvi, good morning to you.
              I see you have received a rational and thoughtful reply, couched in conciliatory, moderate language from the Hydrophobe.
              Foaming at the mouth: monsters, abominations and deliberate liars we are!
              You, it seems are foolish, and unable to think for yourself,inexorably under the influence of Dark Forces released from the seventh circle of Hades, the very epitome of the Dark Side as we deceive all and sundry with sly, complex and intricate fibs hatched since we were old beyond measure and God and the World not yet young.
              In order to avoid projectile evacuations of the sort that have turned up this morning here, I observe to you that the comments against you are not only abusive but underlyingly patronising and sexist.
              Because you have not fallen into line, it must be because you are a malleable innocent susceptible to the murmurings of the inconceivably and consciously wicked minions of the underworld, rather than a capable thinker logically and methodically working through the issue for your own benfit and then presenting your good faith take without fear or favour, for the consideration of others that they, too, may gain a better appreciation of real problems, also.
              You notice no censure for abusive posts if these suit one viewpoint, but if you don’t unthinkingly conform, you are a troll?


              • paul walter March 12, 2013 at 12:05 pm #

                Now, off to listen to Acca Dacca doing”Rock and Roll Damnation”, followed by my special back-masked version of Stairway to Heaven.
                Riding instructions, you know…


              • helvityni March 12, 2013 at 1:27 pm #

                Paul, I’m starting to understand how Gillard might be feeling 🙂


    • Marilyn March 11, 2013 at 4:31 pm #

      Well having Gillard there has been a step back to 1960 for me when the kids in my school sent me to Coventry for talking to the catholic kids.

      She is a racist bigot beholden to the Zionist US shills, the demonic Joe
      De Bruyn and other religious fanatics and old union hacks.


  29. atomou March 11, 2013 at 3:53 pm #

    Well, now I’ll be darned like a sock! The damned post ended up as a reply… at least for now.
    Who the hell can understand the ways of the Cyber God The Befuddler?


  30. Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 4:28 pm #

    Well done you two.
    Here’s my reply, to your infantile baiting..
    helvityni March 11, 2013 at 12:06 pm #

    I asked M Ryutin on BE blog to list the capable and competent people on the Coalition side, I also asked him not to do a Frank( the other Liberal) who has not answered the questions re; the Liberals’ great achievements.
    Can you list them here Hypo, please.

    We might have to start importing politicians from overseas, if the home-rown (sic)are ALL hopeless
    hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 2:51 pm #

    You make a good point. We shall await a reply with baited breath Hypo. If you’re going to virtually support them, you’d better be able to list their virtues.

    You have now finally and officially joined the troll army.
    Your endless list of lies and distortions has finally drawn you to the inevitable climax of your “totally manufactured reality”.
    You have become your own antithesis.Deniers.
    So if you want a list of the qualities of the people I have already told you (for weeks/months) I do not support,I suggest you double the dose of your medication and stop breathing exhaust fumes.
    As for justifying your own position of supporting tea party two,you still haven’t.
    As for examining and acknowledging the damage Gillard has done,you still haven’t.As for mounting a case to vote for her,you still haven’t.
    So do your own homework.

    Whether you like/or acknowledge it,your red headed Howes puppet is about to finish off her mission.
    “The installation of Abbott by way of disembowelling her own party, and sucking in thousands of people like you,into believing it was ever anything but her ego.Power at all costs.”
    And she played right into the hands of the toxic NSW right.
    This is only the beginning of the Gillard Howes story.The rest will get very,very messy indeed.We all have one thing to thank Gillard for.In a roundabout way she will be the one who organised a Royal Commission into Union corruption.And one which has the hope of returning Labor to it’s real form.What a pity it will be by way of an Abbott witch hunt.But it is purely self inflicted so the blame will end where it started, and where it was always meant to go.

    For the last time Helvi, stop bullshitting.


    • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 4:37 pm #

      And by the by, as per what you now seem to ignore whenever Ato posts it.
      Voting for a principle is the process which you find abhorrent.It seems Ato and I do not.
      And from what the mouths I listen to outside here are saying,there is an army of similar voters.
      At the installation of Gillard I thought most of the people here had principles and acted on them,lived by them, and voted for them.
      How wrong I was.How shallow you really are.
      Saving face seems your only goal,nowadays.
      I can just see you on the other side of the election blaming me,Ato, the left,greenies the right,the postie,and even the unborn for the outcome you had a chance to scream out against.
      You chose to bullshit all the way through the opportunity, as betrayals rained down like a ticker tape parade.
      Thank goodness the entire comment trail is here for all the world to see.
      If there was a credibility tax you lot would be zillionaires, by way of tax avoidance.


    • paul walter March 11, 2013 at 6:33 pm #

      How is it, “trolling. lying and bullshitting” to innocently ask what talents the alternatives to the people you are critical of have.
      Who are this multitude of genii? Names? explanation for why you believe such a thing to be so?
      Behind the bluster there is a gaping hole where a good faith answer should have been in your reply, you significantly NOT discussed which Tories are better than; more humane than their ALP counterparts.
      I wouldn’t for a moment believe you would avoid answering the question for shame at not having one, of course..


      • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 7:23 pm #

        Have I ever said the Tories were better?
        I have been consistent in demanding the Gillard supporters justify her betrayals.
        I have been consistent in asking you and others to justify Rudds removal.To what end ?
        To have you all turn around and repeatedly accuse me of being an Abbott su-fucking-porter and refuse constantly refuse to justify YOUR pro Gillard/faux Labor positions as per day one .
        That’s trolling.
        Demanding I do one thing while you weasel out of the hundreds of questions which preceded your last dismal attempt to save face in the imminent slaying of the Howes Gillard regime.
        Trolling is when you ignore all the posts where I said I vote on principle.
        Where I said at this stage its green.
        Where I said I would use my vote to put Abbott and Gillard last.
        Trolling is when people lie despite the evidence before them, and do it based on protecting the faux cred they have built up in little ponds across the net.
        Believe me it’s trolling.

        Why would I examine a party I rate as abysmal as the main alternative?
        I know what they stand for.And now we know what Gillard et al do.The same bloody thing.
        It’s your Karma, paul, vote for her by whatever means you can muster up.Just don’t ask me stupid questions, or make demands based on a lie,falsehood or a troll fest.
        Get it?
        It becomes trolling when the person constantly accuses the OP of having a position which they do not, and then build a litany of lies and straw men upon it.

        The evidence of lying and bullshitting by the Gillardettes is all over the place.
        It’s no good me asking you to review it, you ignored it in the first place.
        That’s why I offered the free reading site.in the last ditch hope, you’d learn the skills.
        Ato is now reliving the same misinformation campaign, as others try wriggling out of their untenable support for the most damaging Labor politician in living post war history.
        If you look back about a day or two you will notice I posed you some questions about Gillards future in a genuine attempt to have a meaningful conversation with at least one cheer leader,but what another wasted post.

        If I can be here to keep you bastards honest and expose the bullshit after the election, believe I will be here in spades.No which tea party wins the lamingtons.

        Labor were supposed to be the party who resurrected the fair go concept Howard suffocated, but instead they just shat all over the dying corpse and cast it asunder.
        If there’s any hope of a faint heartbeat left in it, the electorate must make sure the current impostors in the Labor camp never get their filthy claws near it again.
        If you help them that’s your business.


        • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 7:26 pm #

          No ‘matter’ which tea party wins the lamingtons.


    • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 7:18 pm #

      Hypo its time you stopped,

      I’ve learned in recent days that you can be differently strident with myself or with Doug than you can with some others like Elizabeth and Helvi. They have a lower tolerance for belligerence, and both view and demand respect in slightly more civil terms than us gruff blokes.

      Now we disagree, but you know I respect you, and if I offend you it is for the greater good of getting you to confront the reality that your hatred of Gillard has clouded your judgement.

      You may not want to be asked the question, nor am I leaving Atomou out of this, but anyone who can disabuse me of my conviction that Abbott is miles worse than Labor has their work cut out for them. I’m looking at policies across the board and seeing a few I’m really embarrassed about coming out of this Labor government, and absolutely nothing that I like coming out of Abbott. There’s not even the hope that his mob would work with the Greens to moderate the damage.

      I’m saying we’d be Fucked if that bloke gets in, and asking you what are you going to do about it other than stand by and whinge about the loss of core Labor principles.

      It isn’t better to give them the kicking they deserve if the heads getting kicked most are the people we’d most like to help. That’s cutting off your nose to spite your face!

      I think we all need to calm down and figure out how to get the left to act like more responsibly in the interests of those we know they should be representing. Labor has historically maintained a pretty appalling reputation on immigration, Rudd was the exception. I’ve said the rationale for sacking then reinstating him is probably a bridge too far, but I’ve also said I would support any Labor leader over Abbott, even if I tend to get there by the circuitous route of probably voting Green.

      So I’ve given all of you as much scope as could possibly be available to anyone to take Gillard out of the equation. Your task now in my view should be to shut up about her and concentrate on taking out Mr Rabbit!


      • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 7:37 pm #

        If your eyes are working see the post above.
        Then if you feel like make an honest man of yourself admit that you have misrepresented me and apologise, for deceiving other readers.

        Stop?So you can rewrite history via even more bullshit?
        Don’t think so.

        As Ato said,Abbott is who Abbott is.
        And if DQ is to be believed unelectable.
        Given I give him (Abbott) no credence at all by way of leadership,policy,values system or my trust, why is it that you feel YOU have the right to steer a conversation which you have throughout mismanaged the truth so deliberately?

        Can’t you see I rate him as low as Gillard?
        But in his case as also pointed out by myself and Ato, has the Tea Party as part of his DNNA.
        Now the faux labor camp have undergone a full Abbott blood transfusion, and you won’t have it discussed?
        Sorry mate, but this is just yellow bellied face saving from you.
        It’s not a good look when you admit that no matter what faux Labor has done it’s OK by you.

        When a lot of punters front up to annihilate Gillard HG, the question on their lips is the one you cannot contemplate, and which many have already answered.

        One term of Abbott or a lifetime of a vile Labor no-one recognises/respects?


        • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 7:45 pm #

          I think I’ve read the posts clearly enough. The fact is that I think what I’ve said and how you’ve responded disagrees on a point of analysis. I think Abbott is a lot worse than Gillard, or would be if given power. Moreover you seem to think it might be necessary to punish Gillard in a way that I regard as irresponsible if it means letting Abbott get in.

          I’m trying to make it as clear as possible that if this isn’t about preventing Abbott from getting in, then it bloody well should be.

          My order of Priorities is

          1. Stop Abbott

          2. Fix Labor policies and broken promises

          3. Fix the Labor leadership if it helps.

          4. Get rid of Gillard.

          Do you list them differently?


          • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 8:05 pm #

            You cannot possibly do 2 before you do 4.
            (3 and 4 are the same thing)
            Otherwise you may as well drop 1.


            • paul walter March 11, 2013 at 10:34 pm #



              • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 11:05 pm #

                Penny Wongs body language, as she evaded Sales tonight on 7.30, says ‘your’ position is bullshit,pw.
                Wong will vote for Gillards demise as quick as blink, because in her slow motion mind she thinks she might be the next viable faux Labor female PM.
                The problem being that the voters cannot differentiate between her and Garrett, and see them both as paper mache puppets.


            • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 10:57 pm #

              Hypo, Please….Humour me and assume in principle that we could do 2 before 4.

              If anything the rhetorical device contained in the list may be biased towards the rationalisations I’ve been trying to make in what I fear has otherwise verged on becoming a too emotive exchange of opinions. I trust you will respect my utter transparency in this as it is just a hypothetical question between friends not an attempt to manipulate the outcome of our debate here.


      • atomou March 11, 2013 at 7:50 pm #

        Hudso, the ALP is talking about introducing spelling and ‘arithmetic tests to applicants for teaching as well as something they call “emotional intelligence”. I shall chuckle over this in the privacy of my own and my darling women around me. The lack of imagination shown by your idol is truly chuckle worthy, if not tear jerking worthy.
        For now, I’ve mentioned it only so that I can tell you that you certainly challenge my emotional intelligence, sending my emotions from frustration to mirth and back again, over and over again. I’m beginning to think I’m talking with someone whose memory is about as reliable as that of a goldfish (not an insult but a funny line, so laugh, I command thee!).
        I have said on a number of occasions -and so did hypo- that I am not interested in second gruesome; not interested in the fact that one turd is stinkier than the other, when both are turds.
        I have also said above that I have no compunctions at all in voting for Abbott. I am well clear of that twine coalition of killers of principles. It matters not which is better or worse when we are talking about that level of intelligence, of ethics and of morals; which is a level, so deep in the abyss that my eyes can’t reach it.
        I will vote pretty much as I have said above I will vote. Short of some seismic shake up in the chemistry of either of these two parties, here, in the Division of Chisholm (Anna Bourke’s seat) which is held by over 11% by the ALP, it’ll make stuff all difference where, in the last two places I put the the Libs. Probably put the Libs before the Labs. In my case, the dilemma is not too distressing. But it still wouldn’t be even if the seat was held by a tiny margin. I’d still be looking at the last two spots and it’d probably be Libs ahead of Labs. The names Gillard and Abbott will not be appearing on any ballot paper I’ll be looking at.
        Your questions get sillier by the minute Hudso! That’s what’s distressing!


        • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 8:09 pm #

          Faux Labor are pretty much asking(demanding) that potential teachers require a psych test.
          Now this is coming from a Labor.A political party.
          Shouldn’t we test the head spaces and integrity, motivation, principles of our law makers first?The pollies?

          This is another faux Labor smokescreen.
          And I dare say from the same tool handler who suggested a West Sydney fly by.


        • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 10:44 pm #

          Okay Ato, I’ll laugh in the appropriate places and admit my fallibility where necessary. I am not after all a politician, so I’m very open to people pointing out my inconsistencies which I am sure are many.

          I think it is immature to split hairs over whether we use the names of the Leaders or their parties to describe which set of policies we’re voting for though. And nor am I unaware that what you’re now characterising as turd polishing is an argument about the lesser of two evils that you don’t want to hear. I think it is so important that it is heard, and have no more intention of abandoning my principles in this regard than you do. I simply can do no more than repeat that somebody has to beat Abbott at the next election and if not Labor, with or without the support of others, then I can’t imagine who you expect will fill that remit. But I don’t care how we do it as long as we can agree that it simply must be the first priority.

          What I understand by emotional intelligence is that it is variously regarded as either an interesting facet of neurology or perhaps more often something to do with psychology which I’d be circumspect about introducing to any workplace. But what does it really mean if we subject teachers to such tests? Would you vote for the coalition to avoid it, any more than I’d vote for anyone willing to axe the chaplaincy programs? Because I think they’re an even bigger waste of time. I’m just saying okay fire up the cattle prods, but pick your targets. I’ll take the EI tests over indoctrination in a heartbeat given any choice, the link to Gladly the Cross Eyed Bear is on your right why don’t you head over and ask Chrys Stevenson whether she things she’d stand a snowball’s of succeeding with Abbott. And you have my sincere apologies if this does begin to sound like a broken record.

          Where I do think we may empathise is in that we both live in safe seats where frustratingly there’s not too much chance our votes will change outcomes. Should we move do you think? 

          Okay Ato, I’ll laugh in the appropriate places and admit my fallibility where necessary. I am not after all a politician, so I’m very open to people pointing out my inconsistencies which I am sure are many.

          I think it is immature to split hairs over whether we use the names of the Leaders or their parties to describe which set of policies we’re voting for though. And nor am I unaware that what you’re now characterising as turd polishing is an argument about the lesser of two evils that you don’t want to hear. I think it is so important that it is heard, and have no more intention of abandoning my principles in this regard than you do. I simply can do no more than repeat that somebody has to beat Abbott at the next election and if not Labor, with or without the support of others, then I can’t imagine who you expect will fill that remit. But I don’t care how we do it as long as we can agree that it simply must be the first priority.

          What I understand by emotional intelligence is that it is variously regarded as either an interesting facet of neurology or perhaps more often something to do with psychology which I’d be circumspect about introducing to any workplace. But what does it really mean if we subject teachers to such tests? Would you vote for the coalition to avoid it, any more than I’d vote for anyone willing to axe the chaplaincy programs? Because I think they’re an even bigger waste of time. I’m just saying okay fire up the cattle prods, but pick your targets. I’ll take the EI tests over indoctrination in a heartbeat given any choice, the link to Gladly the Cross Eyed Bear is on your right why don’t you head over and ask Chrys Stevenson whether she things she’d stand a snowball’s of succeeding with Abbott. And you have my sincere apologies if this does begin to sound like a broken record.

          Where I do think we may empathise is in that we both live in safe seats where frustratingly there’s not too much chance our votes will change outcomes. Should we move do you think? 🙂


          • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 10:50 pm #

            I think you may have cut and pasted twice

            I think you may have cut and pasted twice


            • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 11:07 pm #

              Did reading it twice help?
              Did reading it twice help?


              • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 11:14 pm #

                Not really.It still looked like a cop out.
                If you read and digested what I said once, as often as I read what you said twice, you would not be playing catch-up with reality.

                And if you answered as many questions as you asked you’d be hoarse to the point of being mute.


                • hudsongodfrey March 11, 2013 at 11:33 pm #

                  Well that was just rude! I may have to be terse with you Hypo, and you wouldn’t like me when I’m terse 😦

                  The problem with things that need to be digested are that the product at the other end is a turd, and I’m sick of talking about polishing them.

                  You may think yourself clever when you avoid the question with barbed remarks, but it is a poor defence for one who fails in the assigned task of arranging numbers from one to four. Why not be judged on the merits of your ideas rather than the cleverness of your evasions?


                  • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 12:17 am #

                    Shall we play the game your (the NPFS pro Gillard camp)way?
                    Ergo, avoid the question and ask a question instead?
                    Don’t answer,I’ll be you and I will dictate the terms.

                    Which order.
                    1 Vote according to your life long, non-negotiable principles
                    2 Vote on contemporary party lines, using ‘possible’ scenarios as your ‘proof’..

                    There you go HG, a two choice scenario.
                    The very world you live in.


                    • hudsongodfrey March 12, 2013 at 12:36 am #

                      A fine exercise in how to get the answer right and the question wrong.

                      Now what was it you were saying earlier about reading and comprehension?

                      A man in a hot air balloon, drifting off course descends over a field to call out to a passer by “Where am I?”
                      Whereupon the answer comes back, “You’re a hundred feet up in a balloon”. ”
                      Ah” says the ballonnist, “you must be a lawyer”
                      “Why?” says the man.
                      “Because your advice is one hundred percent accurate and totally freakin’ useless!”

                      A bit like your answer here. Long on platitudes but short on specifics.

                      If meant as a question to me I would say the first item informs the second, always.

                      I constructed a four point scenario that requires an ordering of real priorities and demand my quid pro quo!


  31. paul walter March 11, 2013 at 10:35 pm #

    Something that should be extended to some blog posters.


    • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 10:48 pm #

      Grow some balls.
      If you have something to say to me,say it.or else direct it to your desired target.
      You are starting to sound like Ashby.


  32. paul walter March 11, 2013 at 11:04 pm #

    I’ve quite excellent balls, an ex girlfriend once told me.
    Bet I’ve got more, bigger and better balls than you, my mysterious friend.


    • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 11:10 pm #

      She must have been a serious GF to have you allow her access to the ball storage thimble on the mantelpiece.

      I was in Baghdad before you were in Dads bag.


      • paul walter March 11, 2013 at 11:16 pm #



        • Hypocritophobe March 11, 2013 at 11:19 pm #

          Here’s your balls under the worlds most powerful electron microscope > ..


          • paul walter March 12, 2013 at 12:10 am #

            At least I have the balls to sign my own name to my posts rather than hide behind a meat puppet.


            • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 12:20 am #

              Oh shit you have me there.
              I’ll have to give up the fight.
              But wait, the entire voting system is driven by meat puppets.
              Or do you know who votes how?

              And why do I feel like I’m not hiding as much as you are?


    • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 12:22 am #

      I think the word ‘ex’ tells us how excellent they are/were.


  33. paul walter March 12, 2013 at 12:53 am #

    The balls are still there, the girlfriend is in heaven, little sweet-natured one..


  34. atomou March 12, 2013 at 10:07 am #

    Hudso, let me summarise our points of difference and let this debate rest there, OK? It’s getting boring and approaching the threshold of irritation.

    Our differing views rest on the fact that,
    i) whereas I think both major parties are identical in almost every respect: hear, mind, policy, you think that the ALP is just a little better, or not as bad as the Libs.
    ii) whereas you think it’s better to vote for the less deplorable party, I’d rather not vote for either of them because, I think that to vote for a deplorable party, no matter how more deplorable the other is, is to trample on my own principles, to be hypocritical and to be susceptible to the outcries later of “but you voted for them!”
    iii) Whereas you think that the end result will, in any case, be that one or the other major will win govn’t and so you might as well vote for the less deplorable, I suggest that there are other possibilities, the current one being but one of them. I’d rather have lots of minds in Parliament than just the one.
    iv) Whereas you think that the Greens will not win Govn’t for a long time and so there is no point in voting for them -or for the indies, I think that, this is a very narrow view of the political system we have in Oz. One does not vote for the more powerful because they are more powerful. Au contraire, one votes for a broad representation of ideas in the most important chamber in the country!
    v) whereas you think that one votes for Gillard or Abbott, I don’t. I think one votes for the candidates who present themselves for election. To think that one votes for a leader, is, at best naive, misguided at worse, pathologically obsessive. How many have voted for Gillard in 2007? Who knows who’ll sit on the throne five minutes after the next election? Who knows which minister will be chucked out five minutes after the election and replaced by some unknown sock puppet? You might say that, well, them’s the rules of Democracy. I say, well, if them’s the rules, then I’ll abjure the rules (of uncertainty) and vote for the most certainty I can get. Neither of the parties offer that… with any certainty.
    vi) I know what the Libs will do, under Abbott; I’ve no idea where the Labs will take the country, under Julia. So far, their record appals me. Howard’s policies are being given a new paint job and paraded to the people as new, brilliant ideas. Every one of them!

    vii) Whereas I see nothing but a vacuuous mind, in the Labs, one which is totally bereft of a vision and imagination, completely devoid of inspiration, you see them as a glimmer of hope or, at least less dark than the other mob.
    viii)Whereas you think we can fix Labor’s ills after the election, I see that as also naïve, if not… pathologically obssessive. You only have one moment every three years to do something which you are told is meaningful. You cast your vote and you fuck off, completely away from their faces. The bastards will do what they want, no matter how much you scream afterwards. Remember the demonstrations against the Iraq war? They were world wide. Millions marched and millions screamed. Around the world and here in Oz. Was Howard or Bush perturbed by the vox populi? Would give a fart for it! It’s our indecent Democracy, Hudso. Totally indecent and totally dictatorial. Not a Democracy at all.
    And, finally,
    ix) You think that you will not go against your political principles if you vote for the Labs whereas I think that I would.

    These are some of our points of contention. I think you will agree I’ve listed them accurately so let’s not go on aggravating each other. You vote for your idols and I’ll vote for my principles.

    Finally, there was a time when I would vote with quite some fervour and passion, Labor 1 and Greens 2. Then it became Greens 1 and Labor 2. Now, I have learnt a lot about the pitfalls of idolatry and that, in fact, I am not an idolater. My adoration and loyalty to one party, or to one pollie, is never guaranteed. I leave that sort of sentiment to the loud barrackers of footy teams and screaming teenagers when they see their “star” performer.


    • Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 10:36 am #

      I agree 100% and this is my position also.However I think you are wasting your time trying to spell out to those who can only see one possible way to achieve any outcome at any given time.What you have laid out before you Ato is the very reason why Labor is a failure at this moment in history.
      It’s supporters now have aspirations lower than the other lot, and are happy to have anyone clutching a Labor flag.

      Gutless lying seems to be the new black.


    • hudsongodfrey March 12, 2013 at 11:03 am #

      Well Said Ato,

      I’ll try not to double post but I think I should canvass your points then leave it alone too.

      i) I largely agree with though broadening the question to matters of the economy, industrial relations and climate change I think Labor while still far from ideal is stronger. Whereas on a bunch of other issues especially immigration I’m very sad to agree there’s too little between them. And that issue does sway my conscience mightily

      ii) I agree but reservedly, we have to have those other options if we’re going to take them. I also stop short of voting against somebody to punish them if it means making a pact with somebody worse.

      iii) Like I said we assess the possibilities as we see them. With what we’re presented with now those “other possibilities” you suggest seem likely to have only slight impact. Whereas if it helps you I’m willing to expand your point by saying that we have to start somewhere.

      iv) I’m certainly not saying don’t vote Green just because they can’t win outright. What I’ve been trying to say is that if and when I look at Greens or Independents then if I’m honest I’m looking for someone who’ll either work in coalition with Labor or preference away from the coalition. Those priorities being a mixture of my pragmatic sense that the lesser of two evils figures in these choices, and delivering that either way that stupendous push from the electorate I talked about.

      v) Agreed with the slight caveat that at some point barring leadership changes the terms are virtually interchangeable. We’re always torn by the nature of our representative system, I would take the point that given a liberal like Petro Geourgiou was to vote for I think the other candidates would have to be very good indeed to get my vote. I think we also have to say that changing leaders is a possibility and often does have to at least be seen to have more of an apparent influence on policy than we’ve any right to credit given ministers, senior party figures and factions are mostly unchanged.

      vi) I don’t think we’ve NO idea, as voters our job is to have AN idea based on the evidence before us. Fatalistic attitudes do not impress me.

      vII) Let’s just say I don’t totally agree but perhaps on occasion substitute the term vacuum for blank canvass.

      viii) Look at it this way Ato, if I’m not overly confident that we can “fix” broken Labor, can you honestly say that if we got the other mob in we could influence them at all? That’s not just a harsh call it becomes a confusing one because our esteemed representatives don’t seem content any longer to fuck off with our votes, they’ve become increasingly poll driven throughout the course of their term in office, often to the chagrin of many, but certainly in a way that does make them susceptible to pressure on some issues. Small potatoes maybe, but it was the way we got the Royal Commission into child abuse.

      ix) I understand and I respect that. I know you’re right and accept that given a non-Labor option that would effect better government then I’d probably vote Green or Independent ahead of Labor with the Liberals or Nationals down at the bottom and DLP or Family First dead last.

      And finally thanks for the discussion, and can you actually vote ABC?
      (Anyone But Collingwood)?


  35. Hypocritophobe March 12, 2013 at 9:16 pm #

    There are votes in decency indeed.
    Here is NSW Labor and Liberals working as a team.


    The only person seeking the truth is a green.

    “So at the very best, it may be negligence; at worst, it could be part of what is a very, very serious cover-up.”

    The article notes that,
    ‘No-one on the Labor benches uttered a word of protest at the announcement.’

    This is where faux Labors power base proudly resides.
    Julia country.


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    You have to spend a lot of time writing, i know how to save you a lot of time, there is
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