The fcukless zip and Tony Abbott

7 Apr

Just when I was beginning to think it was quite a while since we’d read a good rant about the heartless, soulless, and mindlessly destructive sexual predilictions of the young, there’s Miranda Devine in the Tele this morning.

In a piece titled “Secrets of the hookup culture” Devine castigates “yesterday’s” feminists for encouraging young women to act as do young men, and get as much sex as they can without expecting or wanting romance, love, commitment or marriage. This attitude she describes as the “zipless fuck.” Young women have apparently heeded this unsavoury feminist call, and as a consequence are experiencing disappointment, self-loathing, emptiness, depression and loss of hope.

I have long known that one of my most profound regrets when I die will be that I have not had enough sex with enough people, so I find Ms Devine’s take on this interesting.

Of course, if young women are taught by our culture that sex must be saved for the one with whom you anticipate romance, love, commitment or best-case scenario, marriage, then there are bound to be tears after bedtime. As evidence that this is indeed our dominant cultural sexual expectation, Ms Devine calls on Leader of the Opposition Tony Abbott, who famously expressed a fervent wish that his daughters would respect their virginity as the precious gift it is, and save it for their husbands.

I find Mr Abbott’s willingness to discuss the disposal of his daughters’ hymens in the public domain not a little disturbing. I fully expect he will hang bloodstained sheets out of the windows of the Lodge the morning after somebody’s wedding night.

His daughters, according to Miranda, believe their father is being respectful towards them in expressing his wish, and not at all controlling. I just thought he was being very weird.

The truly loathsome subtext of this saving yourself attitude is the acceptance  by its proponents that young men must still be allowed sexual relief. If they’re not to be allowed it with young women they love and marry, there must inevitably be a perceived lesser class of women with whom they may freely cavort. Even Mr Abbott availed himself of this double standard, apparently leaving behind a child in the process.

It would be so very useful to teach the young about the power of sexual emotions, and the difference between those emotions and love. Sometimes, one can be very lucky and have both at the same time. Often, and especially (but definitely not only) when young and starting out, sexual excitement is misread as something more substantial (is this a lasting treasure? Or just a moment’s pleasure?) and disappointment follows. I honestly don’t know how the young are expected to know the difference until they’ve got around  bit.

Instead of helping with this, the Devine crowd load it up with constructed morality and frame the sexual emotions as inevitably soul-destroying, because not love. Only wanting each other for sex: bad. There are times when “only” wanting each other for sex can be very, very good, as long as both parties know the score. Yet there is still a taboo on “only” wanting sex, upheld by the likes of Abbott & Devine.

Perhaps this is the angle yesterday’s feminists were trying to get across to women, and not only young women. There is nothing wrong with feeling and acting on sexual desire, in and of itself. Only a puritanical, and I have to add misogynist morality, would have it otherwise.

Nevertheless, it’s a well-grounded woman who has never had to ask, will you still love me tomorrow?

127 Responses to “The fcukless zip and Tony Abbott”

  1. wrb330 April 7, 2013 at 4:58 pm #

    Great read Jennifer,
    You got far more from Miranda’s article than I did, I just found the whole thing disturbing & very pro inclined toward self inflicted misery via cheap tacky encounters.
    Thank you for the clarity..(-:



    • Jennifer Wilson April 7, 2013 at 5:15 pm #

      Cheers Brooksy. Thanks 🙂


      • helvityni April 7, 2013 at 7:35 pm #

        Jen, we seem to have similar tastes when it comes music, thanks for Carol King…..always enjoyed her singing.


  2. iODyne April 7, 2013 at 5:07 pm #

    “out the windows of The Lodge” ? I don’t want him to have the opportunity of that location, please JW.
    Without reading MD/Tele, I CNTL/F searched for Erica Jong to be properly credited with the ziplessfuck term. Nuh. crap journo, crap subbie.

    If females imitated the post-breeding behaviour of at least 100,000* modern Australian males per year, they would abandon the spermer with the infant and waltz off to repeat process with some other male.

    (* loosely based on the annual terminations claim by MD and her ilk)


    • Jennifer Wilson April 7, 2013 at 6:02 pm #

      Ooops. Sorry. Premature ejaculation


      • atomou April 7, 2013 at 6:15 pm #

        He, he! Oooops. Sorry. Premature evacuation! Withdrew too soon!


  3. sarah toa April 7, 2013 at 5:11 pm #

    Hi Jennifer, I’ve just found your blog and am loving it.
    I’ve also just finished reading The French Lieutenant’s Woman, John Fowles. It beautifully illustrates the sexual mores and hypocrisies that Victorians and we still have to endure. It’s sort of inspired a post about solo hitch hiking as a satyr spirit female. Oh my. So your post and Devine’s carrying on are really relevant. Thanks. Sarah


  4. iODyne April 7, 2013 at 5:23 pm #

    back in the years just before Sweet Baby James and Carole touched our musical hearts with their honest songs, it was a cliche that nice girls would always say “Now you’ll think I’m awful” after their coital premiere*. Sydney girl Sue Rhodes wrote a book about it then went off to LA and married a cowboy actor with a great name I can’t think of now (all this is from the ME wiki)

    *quite separate from the hymen thing if only Abbott would look at the hairbrush selection in a Price1ine store and see the fat rubber ribbed HANDLES on those suckers he would know what teen girls are really brushing with them yes indeedy).

    I share your ‘profound regret of not having slept with more people’. Russell Brand tops my list which trails away through Miles Davis and Bill Nighy, Terence Stamp, Robert Downey, to donating all my organs afterward, for a go-round with gorgeous Ben Affleck.


    • Jennifer Wilson April 7, 2013 at 6:00 pm #

      Oh, I haven’t made a list. Damn


      • samjandwich April 8, 2013 at 10:12 am #

        Jennifer, I’m sure you’ve made plenty if lists 🙂


    • samjandwich April 8, 2013 at 10:12 am #

      Iodine? Isn’t that something you apply to wounds to prevent infection?

      If this signals a shift from anodyne to benign then I’m doubly confused…

      (see, I do actually get the Walpoleter’s sense of humour!)


    • atomou April 8, 2013 at 11:12 am #

      Carole, Erica Jong and Germaine! I grew up with those three women; and with my parents and sister, of course.
      I mean intellectually.
      Men, women, sex, lust, religion, swirled all about my then simple male head for years, anxiously wondering what on earth each was about and, being Greek, I tried all sorts of roads, including philosophy. Too technical, too much jargon, too much, “on one hand this and on the other hand that.”
      And then Greer turned up and suddenly fenestrations opened and the issues were no longer crouched in fetal positions in some odd, dark corners of my cranium!
      And then Philip Roth, and James Joyce and Zola… they made sure the shutters would never shut again.
      From just outside those shutters came the birdlike vocals of Carole and that was it! Henceforth I grew up in leaps and bounds.
      Others then followed, of course to join them in my nurture and nourishment, so I’m still leaping and bounding tirelessly!
      Forever grateful!


      • samjandwich April 8, 2013 at 11:25 am #

        You’re lucky that your roots have staged a revival.

        For me it was Tori Amos, Liz Phair, and Babes in Toyland. Who remembers them??


  5. spacekidette April 7, 2013 at 6:02 pm #

    I have never understood the demoralising victorian attitudes to sex. It is a beautiful thing, whether it is for the sex itself or for romancing the one we love. Both kinds have its place. So long as each party understands exactly where the other is coming from, who are others to judge?


    • Jennifer Wilson April 7, 2013 at 6:04 pm #

      It must stem from fear and hatred. That’s all I can put it down to


  6. spacekidette April 7, 2013 at 6:10 pm #

    I have a little theory : That people who are forever judging the sexual adventures of others have big hang ups of their own.


  7. zerograv1 April 7, 2013 at 6:34 pm #

    The only thing I have niggling doubt about is the risk of STD’s….randomly chosen sex seems to be fairly unconcerned about this (Its registered sex workers that get all condom wise)…but hey, people will do what they want nowdays. I personally find it a little sad that reckless sex is somehow considered, modern, liberated, cool or whatever, its all a bit cold and uncaring to me.


    • helvityni April 7, 2013 at 7:29 pm #

      Let go girl, Erica Jong was right, the zipless fuck was/is not about insecurities, being liberated , or not being in love with someone, not wanting to marry someone, not thinking the other person being cold, it’s about two people being HOT at the same time and doing something about it….
      Maybe Miranda and Abbott have not experienced ziplessness…..maybe if they got together… ::)


      • Jennifer Wilson April 7, 2013 at 8:05 pm #

        Well said, Helvi


      • hudsongodfrey April 7, 2013 at 9:02 pm #

        Please Helvi not without three condoms a diaphragm and a lifetime supply for morning after pills. Some things are just too dangerous to take risks!


        • gerard oosterman April 7, 2013 at 10:52 pm #

          You are so right hudson,
          I never go anywhere without my 500 meters roll of glad wrap now-a-days. Of course, I am discrete about it and always try and make sure she doesn’t hear me tearing off a couple of meters..


          • hudsongodfrey April 7, 2013 at 11:04 pm #

            A couple of metres is that ALL?

            It reminds me of a Brit’s shock on finding out that Durex, known in the UK as a brand of condoms was better known here in Australia as a maker of sticky tape when the shop assistant handed him a roll, “I’ve heard of do it yourself, but this is ridiculous!”


            • Hypocritophobe April 7, 2013 at 11:17 pm #

              He said meters.
              Obviously likes to keep score.


  8. Hypocritophobe April 7, 2013 at 6:53 pm #

    Aaagh The Divine Ms Devine.
    More mindless flibbertigibbet fodder from the same green eyed people worrying themselves to Ulcerhood, about other people either being more attractive,weighing less,wearing less and or getting more sex than them.
    Because, as we know, other people having fun or getting their rocks off is responsible for wars and famines.

    On another note I see the faux Labor camp is playing the reverse misogynist card(misandry ????) Today they began wheeling out the handbag army to attack the Mad Monk,so if he bites back they can claim he hates women.
    Abbotts biggest problem is the disconnect between mind and mouth.
    (Oh and some of his work mates.)


  9. hudsongodfrey April 7, 2013 at 7:07 pm #

    I was only vaguely aware it, but since we need to know what Miranda Divine is so worried about I looked up this quote from Erica Jong in her 1973 novel Fear of Flying….

    [The zipless fuck is absolutely pure. It is free of ulterior motives. There is no power game. The man is not “taking” and the woman is not “giving.” No one is attempting to cuckold a husband or humiliate a wife. No one is trying to prove anything or get anything out of anyone. The zipless fuck is the purest thing there is. And it is rarer than the unicorn. And I have never had one.]

    This stuff is hardly new and even for those of you for whom this is perhaps a well worn quotation it’s a chance to be reminded just how regressive Divine’s attitudes are. Not to mention Tony Abbott’s, but then we’ve long since stopped expecting better of him.

    What I think gets missed in this quote by Divine and her ilk is that the zipless fuck is a something of an elusive romantic fantasy even in Jong’s own telling of it. It’s tacit acknowledgement that the opposite is normative in Jong’s view, but that sex free of guilt and power games is highly desirable. So you need go no further than that to explain what it is I dislike about Divine’s attitudes to sex.

    The other point to be made as to how thoroughly she’s misrepresented Erica Jong almost pales into insignificance alongside the totality of her insult towards a younger generation who according to her don’t seem to know their own minds when it comes to their own sexuality.

    What a hide!

    Yes Miranda, you can have your sex with guilt and power games if you like, but if we were the last two people on earth then the human race would be surely doomed.


    • Jennifer Wilson April 7, 2013 at 8:07 pm #

      Oh, of course, I’d forgotten Erica Jong defined the zipless fuck. Many thanks for the quote, HG


      • hudsongodfrey April 7, 2013 at 8:46 pm #

        I was very glad I looked it up actually, it really does go directly to the source of the problem as I see it. It’s the old guilt and power trips writ large.

        To me Abbott is just another ambitious politician alternating between serving his masters and covering his backside with alacrity. It’s Divine who’s the real viper and more genuine an enemy of progressive values I think we’d be hard pressed to find, unless…..


      • iODyne April 8, 2013 at 12:47 pm #

        My mention of her was regarding Miwandas failure to attribute the term. These days I believe ‘fvckbuddy’ is the term.

        Re above “Victorian attitudes to sex” – Queen Victoria is the one who couldn’t sign off on law against Sapphics, because she could not believe it could happen.


        • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 1:21 pm #

          You know I actually reckon that the thing with Victorian attitudes to sex and what good Queen Vicky did or didn’t believe has more to do with hypocrisy than anything else. After all her dear consort gave his name to the Prince Albert piercing, so I doubt very much that she was a woman ignorant of the pleasures of the flesh. And she had to be related somehow to Catherine the Great who left nothing to the imagination! And there was of course the matter of the “Ladies of the Bedchamber” who attended Queen Victoria to the consternation of the Tories.


          • Ray (novelactivist) April 8, 2013 at 2:49 pm #

            Victoria and Albert were actually quite avid collectors of the nude.


            • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 2:53 pm #

              Not as avid as Catherine but yes they seemed like a fun-loving couple. It’s just a pity that out of what I can only imagine to be a form of hypocrisy her name because synonymous with all that was prudish in its time.


            • gerard oosterman April 8, 2013 at 3:07 pm #

              Yes, yes…so true. I feel that if they were around now they would adorn their walls with a photo or two by…wait… Bill Henson.


        • samjandwich April 8, 2013 at 2:36 pm #

          And perhaps we could contrast it with its polar opposite, the fuckless zip – otherwise known as the chastity belt? Effectively it seems that’s what Ms Devine is advocating for.


  10. gerard oosterman April 7, 2013 at 8:31 pm #

    Any consideration for those with just press studs or buttons? Those suffering from slippery zipper syndrome would be at a disadvantage. Would a can of fly spray help?


  11. Tez April 7, 2013 at 8:39 pm #

    And surprise, surprise, guess where Ms Divine got her info from? The work of Dr. Donna Freitas, who is Associate Professor of Religion at Hofstra University in New York. Freitas is part of the Love and Fidelity Network, whose mission statement is, “Building the next generation of leaders for marriage, family, and sexual integrity.” (Not that I’m suggesting she’s biased or anything, being religious and all. That’s me eye-rolling.)

    So we have the same old song from the ultra right. And the beat goes on, tra la la la la.


    • Hypocritophobe April 7, 2013 at 9:07 pm #

      Oh dear,
      Ms Devine,
      Joining in on the tag team wheelbarrow relay for the closed minded, close legged Olympics.
      What a predictable nexus with the feckless sexless.

      Donna Freitas-Professor of Religion?
      Is that like ‘winning loser’?
      About the Pro.

      “Born in Rhode Island where The Possibilities of Sainthood is set, Donna received her B.A. in philosophy and Spanish from Georgetown University and her Ph.D. in religion from Catholic University. She now divides her time between New York City and Boston. Donna describes herself as an ***ardent feminist****, a Catholic despite it all, an intense intellectual, and a fashion devotee all rolled into one.”

      “A regular contributor to The Washington Post/Newsweek’s online panel “On Faith,”

      “This attitude accounts for her upcoming venture into the world of fiction, since she will see the publication of her first novel, The Possibilities of Sainthood (Frances Foster Books / Farrar, Straus and Giroux)— about a fifteen-year-old girl, Antonia Lucia Labella, who aspires to become the first official living saint in Catholic history.”

      “Antonia Lucia Labella”

      “a devoted fan of the celebrated British children’s author Philip Pullman
      Pullman?Really? Phil Pullman?
      Is that a real name? He’s not a porn star is he?

      I think I just laughed so much a trickle popped out.
      I wonder if the Professors nickname is ‘Pineapple’?


    • Jennifer Wilson April 7, 2013 at 9:15 pm #

      Ahaha! Now we know.


      • zerograv1 April 7, 2013 at 9:26 pm #

        Has anyone read the form comments at the end of the article…as expected there are the very straight types, one or two comments about God (and some interpreted viewpoint on what HE supposedly wants) but also some interesting interjections from the women written about by MD…some were food for thought


  12. Hypocritophobe April 7, 2013 at 8:52 pm #

    Miranda Devine = Dreamed In Vain
    + Demand Vain Ire


    • samjandwich April 8, 2013 at 2:46 pm #

      Oh yes, aren’t I making so many comments today?

      But seriously, your anagrams are spookily illustrative. Has any of you read the comments on MD’s article?

      Suffice to say that the reason I like to spend time with people with whom I have nothing in common is because their ideas are often so out-there as to be truly fascinating!


  13. Marilyn April 8, 2013 at 5:13 am #

    I confess. I got briefly married at 22 and divorced at 25 because there was a whole smorgasboard of nice men to fuck.


  14. Hypocritophobe April 8, 2013 at 9:23 am #

    Aaagh, some fresh air.
    Here’s someone who also has the intellect to ‘get it’, and the ability to not let pride get in the way of expounding a view.

    So the local fan club, and their vocal *army* best run off and abuse him for daring to articulate reality.


  15. Ray (novelactivist) April 8, 2013 at 9:28 am #

    Miranda is a Catholic and is simply regurgitating Catholic doctrine. According to the CC any form of non-marital sex must be soul destroying.


    • Hypocritophobe April 8, 2013 at 10:00 am #

      Like all ‘good’ Catholics, she likes to say, ‘look away.

      I still say the TOR of the RCom are too broad and have tied it up enough to create escape routes for the main offenders.Who in this govt drew the TOR up the way they are,and why and under what political promises/pressure? (We all know Pell would have had his two Bobs worth)


      • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 10:54 am #

        I liked the article, but mind you that there seems to be a recurring theme to all the articles on that blog, which judging by their titles alone would probably attract similar howls of bias from some to the ones we’re directing at the delightful Ms Divine. It’s not so much that the Loon doesn’t have a point. It’s just that I don’t think its going to be preached to any but the converted. Whereas I’m not so sure this is equally the case for Ms Divine with her several columns in mainstream publications and frequent opportunities to be booed on Q&A.

        Then Loon’s point is nonetheless well made that Divine and her ilk chip away about the edges of what affects a sort of privileged middle class existence, claiming harm as they go, but hypocritically ignoring the greater harms that affect others. But two wrongs have never made a right, (the lesser of two evils maybe…), and in this case we’re arguing that what Divine thinks is a wrong really isn’t one.

        You can’t even argue as she does without ignoring the revolution that has occurred in our medical understanding of sexual hygiene. And the degree to which feminism has empowered women in particular and to some degree liberated men from unequal roles in navigating the minefield of sexual relationships and relations.

        I believe it does take a mind steeped in doctrine to miss the benefits of those advances. But don’t think I’m happy to allow Divine to please ignorance. This is wilful ignorance from somebody whose main claim to fame appears to the the desire to masquerade as Australia’s Ann Coulter.

        I think we’d be best to be clear and consistent in reasserting that when it comes to the psychology of sex and relationships young people today make better informed choices than any other generation in the history of the entire planet. So her concerns are I think not only irrelevant, but they’re damned impertinent and she should be told as much.


        • Hypocritophobe April 8, 2013 at 11:18 am #

          I wasn’t citing loon as anything more than an example of a rebuttal,whereby I did not have to reinvent the wheel.
          The point being, people are onto Devine and her agenda.


          • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 11:41 am #

            Problem is I think some of the people who are “onto Devine and her agenda” are actually into her particular form of masochism.


            • Hypocritophobe April 8, 2013 at 12:26 pm #

              Perhaps, but it is probably more committed and less useless than flip flopping or fence sitting.
              Masochism after all is self inflicted.
              I think apathy and ignorance take a lot more prisoners, and hold us back as a collective.


              • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 12:44 pm #

                You know the old story about the Sadist and the Masochist who meet in a bar. When they get home the Masochist stips off all his clothes and lays on the floor imploring the Sadist “Hit me, go on Hit Me!” whereas the Sadist just sits in the corner and says “No.” – paraphrased from Dave Allen.

                I think what we have here between ourselves and Divine’s side of the argument is a gulf that is similarly divisive, and difficult to reconcile. As I wrote earlier, based on her utter rejection of Jong’s idea of the zipless fuck including the desire for sex without guilt or power plays one might assume that Divine wants sex with guilt and power plays. Whereas for all I know what she really wants is for procreation to occur if at all possible without the messy inconvenience of gratification of any kind.


    • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 10:01 am #

      An espousal of doctrine that might come in for less criticism if she didn’t try to disguise it as some kind of pop psychology.


  16. paul walter April 8, 2013 at 10:09 am #

    Devine is a throwback to what was purportedly cast off in the sixties and seventies, when theorists surmised that sexual repression; “Victorianism” was capitalism’s way of frustrating people away from sustaining lived experience to neurosis- thus to consumer fetishism, control-freakery, sado- masochism, alcoholism, anti-social ladder climbing,the release through violence of the military individual and generally, acceptance of life on the system’s terms, dislocated from reality and enjoyment.
    Feminism and continental philosophy have revisited this foundational thinking quite intensely over time, to flesh out the original ideas of the Frankfurt School and French Structuralists and Existentialists to try and locate the original sources of guilt tripping, but as the likes Barthes and Foucault have said, this is tricky work requiring of honesty, otherwise degenerating to scapegoating; “othering” based on guesswork for those not liberated of the hangups driving the reactive mindset.
    Devine herself is no less a product of this individuating process than anyone else, though like the rest of us she thinks she is above her conditioning. Her career is evidential though, characterised by fitful, frustrated “ressentiment” and it’s of little surprise when one considers her own problematic background, within the very core of Manichean reactionary modernism.
    The constant and fearful attempts at control bespeak a pathology ingrained to the point of unrecognisability: self reflexivity is of course frowned upon by ultras.
    HL Mencken’s seminal description of the Puritan as , “Someone possessed of the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, is having fun”, seems to ring true with this seemingly sour, obsessive, censorious and frustrated woman.
    Which ought to make her a pitiable exemplar of what damage the system does to individuals during a formative stage, a bit like a Dalek.


    • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 11:37 am #

      “Manichean reactionary modernism” really? And here’s me thinking it was but clotted religion masquerading as pop psychology!


      • paul walter April 8, 2013 at 2:55 pm #

        No, its fascist crap massaging on the terrors of the suburban demographic.


  17. Hypocritophobe April 8, 2013 at 10:21 am #

    “this seemingly sour, obsessive, censorious and frustrated woman”

    A very suitable turn of phrase which describes many within the BACWA industry,perhaps?

    Milk curdlers.


  18. samjandwich April 8, 2013 at 10:37 am #

    I’ve often thought how strange it is that our genitals are located where they are, and that they look the way they do. Just imagine if we had discreet little clitorises [clitori?] on the palms of our hands then we could get off with anyone simply by introducing ourselves.

    …But what would you do if John Howard approached you in a shopping mall?

    Mercifully, there’s help for us all:

    As an aside, I recently saw Miranda Devine speak at an anti-violence against women event in Sydney. In contrast to her writing she is actually quite an impressive speaker, and very adept at reacting to twists and turns in the debate and giving a cohesive account of herself. She made some thought-provoking points – which admittedly I can’t remember – but I have to say that my impression of her as a caricature of a conservative, such is dissimulated through her columns, has been replaced by that of a smart but somewhat lonely and tortured soul with more empathy than allows her to just keep to herself. Great legs too.


    • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 11:12 am #

      I suppose we’re meant to take that link to be tongue in cheek?

      Any organisation that carries as footnote to it’s banner “The Augustine Fellowship”, and advocates spirituality as the fifth pillar of its teaching clearly means to proselytise.

      As for what I’d actually do if John Howard approached me in a shopping mall under the circumstances you described, then I think I’d announce loud to all within earshot that he had sticky fingers 🙂


      • Hypocritophobe April 8, 2013 at 11:22 am #

        It certainly makes the Latham mid-election handshake take on a new dimension.


        • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 11:39 am #

          Or the same dimension if the phrase in question was “Get F’d”


      • Ron Savage April 8, 2013 at 1:36 pm #

        Keep your tongue out of my cheeks, you crypto-faggot!


        • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 2:09 pm #

          Aren’t you a delightful troll


          • atomou April 8, 2013 at 3:14 pm #

            Un peu Sauvage, pensez-vous pas?
            Je pense que seulement un double crypto reconnaît un crypto!


            • atomou April 8, 2013 at 3:17 pm #

              Ο υπερβολικά μαλάκας τυφλώνεται!


            • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 3:43 pm #

              Quand est cryptique cesser d’être énigmatique?
              Quand il cesse d’être intelligent et est tout simplement grossier sans aucune raison valable.


              • atomou April 8, 2013 at 3:53 pm #

                Oui, mais… qu’est-ce que vous trouvez “cryptique” dans ce que je viens de dire?
                Dans la grecque ou dans la française?


            • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 4:03 pm #

              Oh dear you’ve tricked me with your cryptic powers.
              You must indeed be some kind of oracle.


          • paul walter April 8, 2013 at 3:29 pm #

            Besides, its a felch-free zone.


            • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 3:44 pm #

              What is the fascination with felching among Australian males?


              • atomou April 8, 2013 at 3:48 pm #



                • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 4:00 pm #

                  Go on then Ato, explain it in lurid detail using the works of Homer and Ovid as your references in words of no less than three syllables with frequent passages in High German or Nara Period Japanese. Would it seem more cultured then? Or still just a peculiar fetish better known for its curiosity value than for any other reason.


                  • atomou April 8, 2013 at 4:22 pm #

                    I refuse to conduct a conversation with someone who’s in the grips of a frenzy about something!


                    • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 4:28 pm #

                      No frenzy just a gentle ribbing for you, since you’re quite possibly the only one here who could quite possibly manage those seemingly insurmountable feats. And the point is well enough made that you can’t by dressing it up in fancy language make the thing seem more palatable, (if that’s not too unfortunate a term).


              • paul walter April 8, 2013 at 8:01 pm #

                You’ll need to ask Hypocritophobe,
                Hypocritophobe was the one who originally brought up the issue,if you’ll excuse the expression.


                • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 8:19 pm #

                  Yeah well now we’re all guilty of making more of it than it deserved. It’s like when somebody makes a bit of a mountain out of a molehill blaming the mole is kind of redundant.


                • Hypocritophobe April 8, 2013 at 9:02 pm #

                  No fascination.I just equate trolls as being low enough to felch.
                  Or low enough to be forced to.
                  If there’s a more scathing insult they can have that too.


                  • paul walter April 9, 2013 at 11:24 am #

                    Recalcitrant, unrepentant…


                    • Hypocritophobe April 9, 2013 at 7:43 pm #

                      Perhaps ‘Thatcher’ can replace ‘felcher’ at the bottom of the list?


          • Ron Savage April 8, 2013 at 3:40 pm #

            Me: I assume you’ve deliberately misunderstood.
            You: Oh, I didn’t misunderstand.
            Me: See above.


            • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 3:49 pm #

              Either explain yourself of leave well enough alone. I took your comment for uninvited abuse. Which on face value is what it is. The context in which I might be willing to see it otherwise may be narrow but not entirely absent, nor explained away in a few more cryptic lines.

              Atomou seems to think I may have misjudged you. By all means prove him wrong?


              • atomou April 8, 2013 at 3:55 pm #

                No, you silly bugger Hudso. I didn’t think you’ve misjudged him. I played with his name, savage and said that he’s being a little savage…
                Damned illiterates! Why do I bother?


                • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 4:04 pm #

                  No I got that part. I’ll have to take back the Oracle thing you mortal you!


    • gerard oosterman April 8, 2013 at 12:32 pm #

      With men anyway, the penis is very often on the palm of the hand.


      • Hypocritophobe April 8, 2013 at 1:05 pm #

        And to some it’s a forehead adornment.
        If the cap fits…..


        • atomou April 8, 2013 at 1:11 pm #

          Ah, what triffic milliner you are, Hypo! Perfect fit every time!
          Admirable talent, indubitably admirable!


          • Hypocritophobe April 8, 2013 at 1:18 pm #



      • paul walter April 8, 2013 at 2:56 pm #

        Or its product..


      • paul walter April 9, 2013 at 12:22 pm #

        We need to grasp the implications of this, to hold on to the concept. We need to get a grip, so to speak, to wrestle further this Laocoon, but it needs to be handled with care, otherwise the consequences triggered could be thoroughly unpredicted.


        • gerard oosterman April 9, 2013 at 12:58 pm #

          I have heard that in some cases of the palm resting penis leading to loss of hearing. Is that true?


          • paul walter April 9, 2013 at 5:41 pm #

            pardon, what did you say?


    • paul walter April 8, 2013 at 2:52 pm #

      It is an interesting phenomena, the location of genitals with male and female as inversions of the other. Amazing to realise that a clit is just a dick reduced to an economical size, but immediately proximate to the love-tunnel that takes the male organ.
      I remember reading a post by a feminist who describe Devine as turning up, odalisque-like, to a seminar in expensive “stomp you” boots that had her and and her associates fit to quail.
      So, Sam Jandwich, she may well have nice legs, the question is, given the tone and content of most of her writing, is anyone getting between them?


      • atomou April 8, 2013 at 3:08 pm #

        Yikes, Pauly!
        But let me instruct you upon a little thing: it is “phenomenon” in singular and “phenomena” in plural. So, since your verb and indefinite article are singular, you ought to use, “phenomenon,” OK?
        No need to worry, I shalln’t be sending a letter to mummy.


        • paul walter April 8, 2013 at 3:30 pm #

          naff off.


          • atomou April 8, 2013 at 3:33 pm #

            I MUST say!
            The ingratitude of some people!
            And you didn’t even have the linguistic knowledge to end your imperative with an exclamation mark! A big F..l, to you young man!


  19. 730reportland April 8, 2013 at 12:40 pm #

    There are two types of people in this world. Those who think that this is the only life you have, so live it, it`s not a rehearsal. (tip, have more sex Jen) Then there is the Devine sky-fairy followers type that Mandy belongs to. They think the `real-deal` is in the next life and this life is a rehearsal. _ Miranda did the usual format, spank Joolya, cheer Mr-Rabbit, spank the feminista, cheer sky-fairy theory, the usual Devine/Limited-News derp. Notice Devine referenced yank stuff.? A different continent and country.


    • Hypocritophobe April 8, 2013 at 1:07 pm #

      I never did believe in Devine interventions.
      MTR just regurgitates American stuff too.It is the lazy option.


      • atomou April 8, 2013 at 3:35 pm #

        Devanity of Devanities, saith the Preacher, Devanity of Devanities; all is Devanity!


  20. Christine Says Hi April 8, 2013 at 3:42 pm #

    Miranda Devine really is proof of the notion that one does not need class to be an upper class twit. The only reason I don’t find her as offensive as I once did is that I made a firm decision back when the earth was young to never again read a word she writes. I find I’ve missed nothing as she is still excreting just the same stuff. I’ll leave her inner workings to hardier souls.

    Philip Pullman on the other hand (with reference to a comment further up the ladder) is a good sort of person and I’m surprised MD has read him. Perhaps she just looked at the illustrations in a newspaper review and thought he was CS Lewis ~ although I’m sure she wishes Lewis had more backbone and less imagination.


    • helvityni April 8, 2013 at 4:01 pm #

      Christine, I read ONE of her articles in SMH, I saw her ONCE on Q&A, that was too much of Devine.

      On the other hand, if people of Australia think Abbott is good enough to be their PM, then I suppose they’ll find Devine rather divine, kind of goddess like….


      • paul walter April 8, 2013 at 4:08 pm #

        Both peddle Opus Dei style rubbish.


      • Hypocritophobe April 8, 2013 at 4:29 pm #

        Whatever our fellow Australians choose at the elections, will be what they choose.
        If that is choosing Abbott outright, that’s tough titty for the Gillard sops.
        If however, in the process of ditching Gillard and her union masters we end up with the same resort, we cannot say that faux Labor were not warned.
        Personally I was not too happy about 3 terms of Howard, but you know what? We survived.You need to be less idealist Helvi.Look how much trouble it gets me into.

        And please don’t race off like a bantam hen on a hot stove squealing “Hypo’s an Abbottonian”.
        He can rot in the same sewer as his red headed sparring partner.
        Neither is fit for office.


    • hudsongodfrey April 8, 2013 at 4:09 pm #

      Thanks Christine that last paragraph gave me a good laugh with the whole mistaking Pullman for Lewis thing 🙂


  21. 8 Degrees of Latitude April 9, 2013 at 2:02 am #

    Late into this. Sorry. Must plead pressing business elsewhere. Nothing titillating though. Pity.

    I agree entirely with your thesis. It is profoundly disturbing that anyone should be concerned with the hymen’s quality of intactness other than the owner of the same, provided of course she is over the age of consent.

    It’s never been clear to me why sexual morality, always a subjective issue, so exercises the meddlers of the right and those in the organised religions. Sex is wonderful and should be enjoyed in whatever circumstances suit, hopefully with common sense along for the ride. Humanity does not live on a stud farm and furthermore, the old adage about not casting the first stone seems very apt.

    The Mirandas, the Tonys, and sundry others should butt out and mind their own business.


    • zerograv1 April 9, 2013 at 8:53 am #

      I love this phrase – ” Humanity does not live on a stud farm” – do you mind if I borrow it for my next book?


  22. doug quixote April 9, 2013 at 2:45 pm #

    The true value of the hymen was in ensuring, in the days before DNA testing, that the offspring of the nobility and especially royalty was just that : their offspring.

    It seems to me that the preservation of the hymen no longer serves any useful purpose, and instead condemns multitudes of women to enjoy (or not) sexual relations with just one man, probably to the detriment of both, if only they knew it.


    • 8 Degrees of Latitude April 9, 2013 at 5:17 pm #

      That might be the case if abstinence were commonplace. It’s not. What is commonplace, unfortunately (and we’d agree on this I’m sure) is the sickening cant with which so-called sexual moralists assail us.


      • doug quixote April 9, 2013 at 7:10 pm #

        Of course I agree with you. Control of sexuality, and particularly female sexuality, has been a major goal of the religious ever since the world was young.


        • zerograv1 April 9, 2013 at 7:12 pm #

          Not just the religious, its been the major goal of almost every parent with young teenagers for milleniums


          • doug quixote April 9, 2013 at 7:18 pm #

            Sexuality in general, not just that of children, teenage or otherwise. A sexually active forty-five year old woman has been demonised for as long as religion has existed.


          • doug quixote April 9, 2013 at 7:20 pm #

            And it is “millennia” (thought I’d get in before atomou 🙂 )


            • zerograv1 April 9, 2013 at 7:34 pm #

              Fair enuff, usually nuffin rong wif me gramma is there?


              • Hypocritophobe April 9, 2013 at 8:04 pm #

                Is your grandmother ill?


              • paul walter April 10, 2013 at 12:44 am #

                Well, of course.
                In bygone times you had things like famines and disease and poverty and women could have a dozen kids, half them die and still die themselves worn out in their thirties.
                Not not much use daughter coming home pregnant without a breadwinner about at fourteen, so they discouraged it.
                It’s only over the last century that people have been able to loosen upon sex, because the consequences of it have eased through science.


              • doug quixote April 10, 2013 at 8:23 am #

                And you should write ‘it’s been” which is a contraction of “it has been” 🙂


            • paul walter April 9, 2013 at 10:03 pm #

              sexuality has been round for milleniums.


          • 8 Degrees of Latitude April 9, 2013 at 7:35 pm #

            I’d agree, zero, except to say that effective pregnancy prevention is a very modern development (really only two generations) and that the world has very largely moved on from the collective social regulations of the past. Some people (some of them parents, granted) are still catching up.


        • paul walter April 9, 2013 at 8:27 pm #

          And it has been as destructive for us as for them.


    • hudsongodfrey April 9, 2013 at 9:45 pm #

      I don’t know that the problem starts and ends with hymens and contraception though. The notion of sexual innocence including perhaps even the innocence of children is both a powerful and highly problematic one because it infers that there is such a thing as sexual guilt as applied to the very people who aren’t the transgressors. And the psychological harms and fears tied up in that little knot of discontentment have hugely damaging ramifications for a great many people, most of whom are women and children.


      • doug quixote April 9, 2013 at 10:31 pm #

        HG, how can you write so many words and say nothing? Are you trying out for politics? 😉


        • hudsongodfrey April 9, 2013 at 10:46 pm #

          Actually I thought I was making an important point about the folly of our attachment to sexual innocence. That’s hardly nothing! And if only it were possible to avoid stating the blatantly obvious where the merely obvious might suffice then I’d assume somebody was listening. 😉


        • Hypocritophobe April 9, 2013 at 10:50 pm #

          It’s a dying art.


  23. relocation moving company May 1, 2013 at 6:24 am #

    I’m going to bookmark your site and preserve checking for brand spanking new information


  24. kindredspirit23 May 5, 2013 at 2:01 pm #

    I could, most likely, get in trouble for this, but I agree with you nearly 100%. I would get in trouble because I was raised to only have sex in marriage. I don’t agree with this, but the atmosphere I was raised in might not even speak of it at all. I had to learn most everything I know about sex on my own. The Internet and my curiosity have been wonderful to me in that last decade or so. I didn’t put this strict doctrine into my children. They have turned out well and, I believe, are smarter in the end.
    Anyway, long and short of it, thanks – good article.


  25. blue milk May 5, 2013 at 4:12 pm #

    Great post!



  1. The 60th Down Under Feminists Carnival | the news with nipples - May 4, 2013

    […] and relationships The fcukless zip and Tony Abbott by Jennifer at No Place For Sheep. Relationship phrases we should probably retire by Can Be Bitter. […]


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