It was with some reluctance that I sat down last night to watch SBS Insight’s inquiry into the effect of pornography on kids. I anticipated a roll out of the usual suspects with the usual hysterical claims that porn is warping the minds of our children and nobody can have decent relationships anymore and society’s going to hell in a hand cart unless we take down the Internet and make it all stop.
What a relief and a pleasure, then, to meet a brilliant bunch of young people with more common sense than I’ve found in some adults, and very definite ideas about the role of pornography in their lives and what they want adults to do about it.
“Porn isn’t going to go away,” declared one young woman, “and we want information about it. We want to know what’s real and what isn’t.”
All the young ‘uns had encountered hard core porn and none of them were impressed with it. Some they found hilariously funny. Unfortunately a middle-aged Anglican minister in the audience was deeply affected by their nonchalance, and said he found it terribly sad they’d ever seen any of it. Mostly they watched amateur porn, they said, to learn what to do and where things go. They would like some adult guidance through the genres, they said, because how were they to know what was fantasy and what people really do?
The only other person visibly upset by pornography was a adult male who identified himself as a practising Catholic and who said that thanks to porn, he couldn’t see women as human beings because he couldn’t get past his lust for us and find our humanity. Lust blinded him. He struggled daily with his lustful feelings, and I felt very sorry for his obvious torment. He claimed that this was all due to viewing porn and he wished he’d never set eyes on it.
Sociologist Michael Flood, a well known critic of porn, made the somewhat odd statement that “Porn shifts what we think of as normal.” Who is “we?” What is “normal?” What kind of porn is he talking about? Obviously from the kids’ point of view porn doesn’t shift what is normal, because they have no idea what is “normal” and would clearly appreciate some guidance. To his credit, Flood later claimed that we need more varied and “ethical” porn, and perhaps there’s something in that.
Obviously there are kids who are negatively affected by porn, and one of the sex educators in the audience expressed her concern for girls she worked with who were intimidated by boys’ demands for the kind of sex the girls didn’t want and didn’t enjoy. So there’s a need to teach sexual manners.
However, as one young woman firmly stated, if boys want to know what a girl wants they have to bloody well ask her. Don’t assume it’s the same thing women in porn films want. It isn’t about how creative you think you are, she told the lads. It’s about what pleases the woman. Her mum, sitting beside her, nodded vigourously and beamed with pride.
All in all the show considerably lifted my spirits. I’m very fond of young ‘uns. They almost always have more smarts than I expect. And if this group is any guide, they can watch porn, even from an early age, without incurring devastating damage. But they want our help. Not censorship. They know porn is part of our world and isn’t going away, and they want to learn how to deal with it. They want guidance. They want trust. They want education.
Hear that, morals police?
No Place For Sheep 
Is PRON (Title text) a deliberate typo JW?
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Yes, Hypo. it is
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My spirit is lifted too, Jennifer, by your post. I didn’t see the programme. But I think it’s sadly typical that the complainants in the audience were men, victims of their own whatevers, and seeking in the proprietorial and hegemonic fashion of such people to impose their views on the rest of us.
Good on the young people for being far more sensible. If something offends, don’t watch it. If it might offend others, that’s the lookout of those others. It’s not compulsory!
That said, most visual pornography is crass and to be avoided – but as a waste of time, not as a crime.
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Goodo.
I was wondering what them ‘nasties’ throwing “kids and p*rn” into Google, would do when the search brought them here!
Which may be a a good thing????????
I missed the show,but I’m glad it was as you said, and that’s probably what most rational people think anyway.
I wonder if the Puritanian Sex Fearing God Botherers ambushed the punters in the SBS carpark after the show, with leaflets and little statuettes of their fave deities?
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The ones who didn’t get it were the Muslim educator and the Anglican priest.
Porn is fantasy for adults, and not surprisingly mostly made by and for men, and in particular for men.
It should not surprise anyone that a lot of women don’t appreciate it; most men don’t appreciate female fantasies either.
The holy rollers of the bacwa try their hardest to repress (everyone else’s) sexuality.
Just because they value celibacy, abstinence and self denial does not mean they can enforce that upon everyone else.
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“Just because they value celibacy, abstinence and self denial does not mean they can enforce that upon everyone else.”
I think you mean DEMAND celibacy(from others)
The abysmal church sex abuse and cover ups record proves that.
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What I have written, I have written.
Pontius Pilate. (and Doug Quixote)
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You mean that the people who like to give others advice about something that they don’t do took exception when their flock take matters into their own hands!
Read into that what you will!
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My brain hurts now,HG.
Do elaborate.
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JW Some questions (You may or may not be able to answer/engage, or even be bothered)
But just in case….Given your blog status,would SBS Insight be up to answering whether they were approached by, or approached any of the anti porn MTR types?
If so what were the machinations/outcomes?
(I mean this should not be something considered a state secret, by SBS.)
And I do wonder if MTR et al (the Dines and MTR defenders etc) were not there(given their self-appointed huge, stakeholder status) why?
I just cannot see the usual suspects NOT demanding a seat.
Of course the perfect SBS answer to would be ….
“Thanks but no thanks”
They (SBS) don’t come across as anywhere near as saturated with cheer leaders for prudes, as the Nouveau ABC is.Nor do they seem as immature.
I am also excited that there is a possibility (via budget announcements) of SBS getting an Indigenous Channel up.
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Yeah, I was greatly impressed with the teens/young adults. They didn’t all agree but they were articulate. Insight did a program on sex ed with teens a few years back. Same sensible responses. And like last night they again asked for comprehensive sex ed that allows them to discuss the issues that confront them.
Michael Flood was okay. Yes, porn has changed what we consider normal but that is largely a good thing. We must not forget that not too long ago people were very ignorant. My mother didn’t know what a clit was until she was in her 30’s and she’s never had an orgasm. My father was an incompetent lover. Porn has actually helped in a number of ways. Female ejaculation is now better understood, as are anal orgasms.
But there’s still a lot of ignorance and a lack of skill.
Addiction is a problem, but then, addiction to anything is a problem.
And yes, porn is often crass, cheaply made, tacky. But there’s an historical reason for this. Unlike other times and other cultures (Japan, India, Rome) where the erotic arts were integrated into mainstream culture, Christianity ensured that the erotic was suppressed. The porn industry was pushed underground and that aesthetic still rules the industry.
I look forward to the day when sex can be accurately represented in mainstream culture, especially TV and movies. Then we might get some intelligent and sophisticated erotica. I suspect that once this happens the ‘porn’ industry will fade away.
In Indian aesthetics the erotic is given an important place as one of the moods (rasas). There are 9, including humour, horror, heroism, etc. During the Indian Golden Age (before the Muslim invasions) the arts dealt with the erotic mood in many ways, including explicitly. The temple at Khajuraho is a prime example.
Time for us all to grow up methinks.
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There is a campaign!
And as before the owner of the story has left his/her name off it.
Do we need FOI now,to find out this shit?
I smell a high level of RC influence getting an upper hand at Aunty.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-09/porn-script/4001014
“Posted May 09, 2012 20:00:25 ”
Posted by who ? Not good enough,public broadcaster.
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Could the stats in this be right?
70% of men addicted to porn?
You have got to be frikkin’ kidding.
I demand the raw data.
http://item.liveleak.com/2/view?i=96e_1266015931
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I do recall reading once that studies that were proposed into this kind of thing overseas floundered for lack of a control group. The problem was that they needed a sample of men (maybe women as well) who weren’t exposed to porn, but they couldn’t find any.
So when people claim things are addictions I think we need to be a little circumspect. After all breathing is rather habit forming, and could perhaps be called addictive, but according to the way language is normally used we draw reasonable distinctions between things that are a choice and things that aren’t.
And that’s my problem with the article you linked to. Anyone with the sort of time on their hands (there’s that pun again), that the article alludes to when it talks about people spending 18 hours a day in front of online porn, has a hobby to be sure, but I fail to see how you could call it an addiction.
From Wikipedia…
“Classic hallmarks of addiction include: impaired control over substances/behavior, preoccupation with substance/behavior, continued use despite consequences, and denial. Habits and patterns associated with addiction are typically characterized by immediate gratification, coupled with delayed deleterious effects.”
So given all that, there’s still not a lot to go upon to say that people who write these kinds of articles aren’t merely mistaking any kind of gratification that they disapprove of for something that might be harmful.
For example use of porn for masturbation involves gratification leading to the deleterious effect of not wanting to repeat the process for however long it happens to be before one’s libido returns.
If that sounds like an addiction then the problem you’d have to explain away then is why a regular sex life with one’s partner could not be interpreted in just the same way, hopefully times two!
It seems very much to me that some people want to criticise choices people make about how they conduct their sex lives whether with their partner or by indulging in fantasy. And granted that some people don’t always have the choice to be with a partner I think it’s just plain narrow minded and churlish of them to try and represent their assembled forgone conclusions as if they were suddenly meaningful. Just because they’ve changed the title of the document from “My problem with porn” to “Study into Porn Addiction”, shouldn’t mean the rest of us have to take them seriously. And if the kids on insight could see that then here’s hoping a few more adults might be able to too.
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Agreed.
And I’d like to see the study/s terms and conditions pertaining to addiction.And given the arousal power of porn, the vested interests of those studying it(for and against) and the whole statistics/impact thing, my curious science-respecting mind needs to see some serious background to the study quoting the numbers claimed.
I would need to see some serious explanations of the methodology,and the sample types/demographics first.
There’s no way this sort of claim should go uncontested,given especially the baseless (growing) tactic of those trying to link adult porn to child porn to sexual abuse to church paedophilia etc.(Now handy to have a media like porn to blame church paedophilia on)
There are way too many escape clauses being created and outlandish claims being made.
Porn as we know covers a myriad of definitions and extremes.
And to label them all ‘similarly’ is as far from truth as is possible.
And then there are those anti-porn,anti choice,anti everything’s, making money from it all.
70% of men?
Pure bullshit until proved otherwise.
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Oh, I don’t know, there are perhaps billions addicted to religion.
I don’t know whether others have been following Niall Ferguson’s opus on ‘Civilisation : Is the The West History?’
http://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/niall-ferguson
But it seems the East Asians are now getting the Protestant Work Ethic. Quelle Horreur!
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Hypo,
When I get access to my home computer I’ll post a link to a website that looks at the neurophysiology of sexual addiction. It’d actually an addiction to shame. Without a doubt moral conservatives define any ‘untoward’ interest in sex as a problematic addiction. They make no distinction between natural hypersexuality and genuine addiction.
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Couldn’t agree more with this post. This is exactly why I launched http://makelovenotporn.com 3 years ago with this talk at TED: http://blog.ted.com/2009/12/02/cindy_gallop_ma/
The response has been extraordinary ever since, globally – if you’re interested, you can read about it in detail in my (very short! very cheap! 🙂 TED e-book ‘Make Love Not Porn: Technology’s Hardcore Impact on Human Behavior’:
http://itunes.apple.com/us/book/make-love-not-porn/id452296228?mt=11
The next iteration of MakeLoveNotPorn goes live later this summer – you can sign up for beta now:
https://www.makelovenotporn.tv/
I think you’ll like it 🙂
Cindy Gallop
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I loved your TED talk then and I enjoyed seeing it again now. Too bad about the censorship towards the middle though. And I couldn’t agree more with your sentiments. The insight program highlighted similar issues with a generation unlike our own who find porn more confusing at times that liberating.
A little more information and a few less prejudices might go a long way, but the other thing that I think is true of porn is that outside of the more genuine representatives of the Amateur categories let’s face it there’s a lot of crap out there to contend with.
And by crap I don’t mean to disapprove as much as to give an opinion as a pure critic from the point of view that you did when you mentioned some of it resembling open heart surgery. The idea strikes me as interesting that fantasy and indeed many of the kinds of things contained in erotic writing are more arousing than purely having people go through their paces of performing said number of sexual acts within a given time span and the more extreme the better.
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I like this post and I appreciate the summary as I didn’t watch the SBS programme.
But, demanding sex acts that girls don’t want to do and intimidating them? This is not “sexual manners”, this is domestic violence, sexual assault and male privilege.
I’m against censorship, I am a feminist, i am pro-choice and i am an atheist, but I don’t understand why some people are defending porn so vigorously and seem to be wilfully ignoring the way it treats women. At the very least we need an evidence-based, feminist critique.
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I agree we need an evidence-based critique. I hesitate to describe all situations as “domestic violence, sexual assault and male privilege” when I have no knowledge of specifics. Certainly all those things occur within some relationships, and also a lack of sexual manners. I did use that phrase with some irony.
I don’t “defend” porn, I defend the right of adults to make their own choices, even if they appear to be “bad choices” to someone else. This isn’t the same thing as wilfully ignoring the way porn “treats” women. You are right, though, that we need evidence in this debate. I thought Insight went a long way to contesting many outrageous claims made by anti porn campaigners.
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‘Porn’ is so diverse that it caters to every need and niche, including feminist porn. It most cases ‘porn’ is a pejorative term to describe any erotica the person disapproves of. There is an old saying, one person’s erotica is the others porn.
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It does amuse me that many people in this debate seem to know how performers in the porn industry (and that includes men, which most of the time people seem to ignore) are being treated, yet seemingly they’ve never actually spoken with any of the performers. So we’ve had hardcore porn in Europe since the mid 1960’s and in the US since 1970’s. How many cases of exploitation have popped up in that time? Discounting the utter lunacy of Shelley Lubben, you’re left with Linda Lovelace. The details of her story seem to indicate the major problem there was a horribly abusive husband, which I don’t think the porn industry can be blamed for. It’s one of the problems I have with this debate; people are claiming to speak for people in the industry when what they’re actually doing is silencing their voices.
Sure there are complete arseholes in the industry like Max Hardcore and a lot of revolting content is produced (actually probably a lot less of objectionable content is being produced as child porn and bestiality films haven’t really been commercially produced in Europe or the US since the 1970’s), but the lack of complaints from performers says a lot about the industry.
As for defending porn, well I am quite suspicious of those in the “anti” camp. Putting the religious right aside, you really have to question why the anti porn feminists feel the need to teat female performers in the industry like children who need protecting. There’s also the issue where some in the anti camp have issues with sexuality (see Clive Hamilton and Emma Rush’s rather antiquated and narrow views on sexuality) and the constant conflation with porn and prostitution or illegal material like child porn.
I really think at this point in time, nearly 50 years since the first wave of widespread commercial distribution of porn, if there’s STILL no evidence that consumers are harmed by the material, that performers are not being harmed, then it’s time to put this debate to rest. A few months ago somebody stuck up the 1980 Canadian anti porn documentary “Not A Love Story” on Youtube. Besides the unintentional humour throughout the movie, what really struck me was the arguments against porn haven’t really changed one bit in over 30 years.
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Matthew,
Yes, it’s amazing how particular ‘inconvenient’ voices are ignored. One of the things that continues to amaze me is the sheer volume of women prepared to appear in all categories of ‘porn’. From the hardcore industry in the US to amateurs who send in their pictures to ‘Picture’, etc. Has Playboy or Penthouse ever run out of models? They ‘must’ all be stupid victims right?
This must baffle feminists. Why isn’t there some Lysistrata like revolt?
The reality is that those who stay in the industry do so because they like it and like sex. Most try it for a short time in their early 20’s and get out after making a quick buck. A few get trapped, take drugs and spiral out of control. A rare few become stars and gain a great deal of control over what they’ll do and with whom. It’s much like the mainstream movie industry. How many young starlets have passed through that industry for every Kate Winslet or any award winning actress (and the casting couch is real).
Btw, not all porn is designed to arouse. Some of it is designed to shock and satisfy curiosity and a fascination with the bizarre. No-one is going to try it for themselves, they’re just fascinated by the freak show.
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I always find it really odd that in this debate that probably the most widely distributed and seen shock video of all time, “2 Girls, 1 Cup” is absent from the debate. Youtube videos of people’s reaction to the original video number in the thousands. It’s parodied in pop culture by “Avenue Q” and “The Family Guy” How many millions of people have seen it? If Gail Dines is right (re: the slippery slope argument), surely by now the world’s favourite sexual pastime must be eating each other’s shit.
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Yes, odd, after all she has made a great deal over ATM and the fact that one porn actress had a fecal mouth infection. Shock. Horror. How disgusting. Forgetting to mention that ATM is now common and that what is truly remarkable is the lack of illness caused by this previously taboo practice. Do people think they are stupid and would knowingly put themselves at serious risk? Might it be that they have worked out how to do it safely?
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Agree with Matthew when he says, I am quite suspicious of those in the “anti” camp.
And coincidence aside, I have seen these words before,
“I’m against censorship, I am a feminist, i am pro-choice and i am an atheist”
almost word for word over at ABC religious recently.
(Used in defence of MTR.The behaviour of that ‘poster’ went downhill from there.)
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kellsy :
30 Jan 2012 8:55:53am
Have only just read this article now. Hope it’s not too late to comment. Thank you so much for this. Not only is it by far the best article I’ve read on this whole sad and sorry affair; it’s one of the best articles I’ve read in years. In fact, it’s the only DECENT one.
I am pro-choice, left-wing, atheist and a feminist. Yet I have the utmost admiration for Ms Tankard Reist’s work. I sincerely wish I had read this article a few days ago, before ploughing through such a litany of petty nastiness towards MTR from the supposedly liberal press and from various feminist and left-wing blogsites. Just what is it about pornography and abortion that makes progressives drop every progressive ideal they supposedly stand for? They love to preach inclusivity, but are very quick to exclude and villify anyone who looks for the greys and nuances in these two very difficult subjects?
Reply Alert moderator
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The ‘perp’ eventually went all gaga and exploded in anger over peoples rights to disagree with them.They were also ejected from another site.
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And Hypo outs the trolls!
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I think you will find the ‘defence’ is for free choice.
I’m not prepared to change laws/society or my life for the BACWAs, just because they or anyone else wants policy based on opinion or noise levels.
Not all porn is evil violent or degrading.
Religious zealots create more problems than porn.
So does gambling.
So does alcohol.
So does police corruption.
etc.
Priorities.
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Hey Doug,
The President pinched your nag!!
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Pretty much fair enough, altho my eyes alighted on Michael Flood’s comment concerning “normalisation” and recognise that in general this where the line divides between cautious souls like MTR and heartlessbitch. These think of normalisation” in the way that many think of an alleged sensitisation to violence many argue occurs with news and the way its presented, in short they are bothered that media depictions will legitimate some behaviours that could well do remaining in the dark ages where they belong.
Felt sorry for the catholic young bloke Jennifer mentions, but think he is mistaken. He thinks desire is evil, its not, its just a fact.
He reacts to women because of the complex mix of hormones that makes him a male, not because of teh pr*n and the nasty complex the Abbott types have given him about himself and sex, which is a filthy, crippling Manichean thing that comes straight out of the nineteenth century.
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I am pleased to allow President Obama to ride Rocinante (how he sees himself, that is!) for as long as he wants to.
My project to secure proper recognition for Edward De Vere, the only real, true and genuine William Shakespeare means that Rocinante had to be left in the stable.
Sancho Panza still wants to be the first male Australian Saint, even though his enthusiasm dimmed a little when I told him he had to be dead first.
Serious readers are recommended to read :
http://www.authorshipstudies.org/articles/oxford_shakespeare.cfm
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You must admit DQ,it was genius of ‘The Prezzes” minders to attach a quoit spike to the head of his steed, so that when he visits Oz we can park it on a back lawn(buffalo) somewhere and enjoy a game of what used to be a National past time!
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I don’t know what happened to ‘How now Cardinal Pell’ , but this passage seemed amusing to me
“Duke of Gloucester:
I will not slay thee, but I’ll drive thee back:
Thy scarlet robes as a child’s bearing-cloth
I’ll use to carry thee out of this place.
Cardinal Winchester
Do what thou darest; I beard thee to thy face.
Gloucester
What! am I dared and bearded to my face?
Draw, men, for all this privileged place;
Blue coats to tawny coats. Priest, beware your beard,
I mean to tug it and to cuff you soundly:
Under my feet I stamp thy cardinal’s hat:
In spite of pope or dignities of church,
Here by the cheeks I’ll drag thee up and down.
Cardinal
Gloucester, thou wilt answer this before the pope.
Gloucester
Winchester goose, I cry, a rope! a rope!
Now beat them hence; why do you let them stay?
Thee I’ll chase hence, thou wolf in sheep’s array.
Out, tawny coats! out, scarlet hypocrite!”
from Henry VI part one, by Edward De Vere (aka Shakespeare)
Some fools think that Skakespeare was a secretly Roman Catholic part time actor and businessman from Stratford upon Avon, one who never wrote or received a letter in his lifetime that we know of.
Read that passage and then tell me how catholic he was!
The Protestant Earl of Oxford, Edward De Vere on the other hand . . .
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Well, where are you all? Fast asleep? Read my posts!
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Kids & porn? How to get more of it? The biggest complaint when I was a kid, about (then premier) Johannes Bjelke-Petersen (the most multi-culturally named premier yet?) was that we couldn’t get our hands on any “dirty pictures”.
Something for the Liberal party to keep in mind is how many of their voters consume porn. For every Hillsonger who wants to ban pre-marital hand-holding, there are no end of couples – tradesmen & small business entrepreneurs who won’t be giving up their blue movies for ANYBODY.
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Not anything to do with the topic at hand, but I found it amusing that Hinch got MTR to say that she has problems with beach volleyball for women (in regard to the Lingerie Football League); http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/breaking-news-blog/lingerie-football-sexploitation/20120522-1z2xb.html She’ll have all women’s sport banned by next Thursday I’m assuming.
MTR also says that the Lingerie Football League is the only professional gridiron they can play; http://twitter.com/#!/MelTankardReist/status/204461313001398272 However that’s not true. There was a professional league in the US until 2007, and the Independent Women’s Football League was formed out of that. MTR and facts don’t mix well.
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Thanks Matthew. Have been off line all day, will catch up now.
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It seems MTR and her anti-undies fundies are good at witty names like KidsFree2bKids, but the concept of adult freedom is way too complicated for their frigid pumpkins to grapple with.
After the ‘house trained’ kiddies graduate to adulthood what then, to become abstinent priests? After all, sex to the bacwa’s is an annual event for babyfication only!
Pity the children of the future in that scenario.The last thing kids need is more priests.
Pretty soon this pathetic bullying by petition by zealots will be exposed for the political/religious pfaff it is.
Hinch should know better after trying to pretend to care so much for kids so as to expose the offenders.If he were genuine he would ask the as yet unanswered questions.
Is MTR doing anything public about the priest V children sport? If not why not?
Where’s the outcry?Where’s the petition?
Ask if she’s a Catholic too please Derryn.
“Selective Clout strikes again.
Coming to a beach near you.All over bathers (top to toe) compulsory,ladies.”
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Python does a better version of Spam,Surely???
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Why are these bots tolerated, Jennifer?
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Oh, because I have this thing about free speech I suppose.
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Speech should be free, but advertising should attract a fee!
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FEE! ?
Tassie beer for me.Just above freezing temp.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!
And I nice bit of Jarlsberg and some stuffed olives.
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Yes, that’s true. *sigh*
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